Additions for a Stout - Help!!

[barry44]

Hi guys,

i fancy making a stout as my next brew and i have been successfully using bru n water to adjust my water for my pale ales so ive been playing about with it for a stout.

The profile i've chosen is the Dublin profile, where else, but i am having real issues getting my bicarbonate levels up without the addition of pickling lime.

The chemicals i have are Gypsum, Epsom Salt, Baking Soda & Calcium Chloride. I assume that the canning salt is just normal table salt, is this correct?

I am finding it difficult to find pickling lime in the homebrew shops and the only place i have found it is on amazon where it is available in many forms.

The one i am looking at is: http://www.amazon.co.uk/300g-Calcium-Hy ... 1XWP6SK74C

Whilst this does not provide any details about being food grade, is that an issue?

Also, once i get the bicarbonate levels up to the required 300, the mash pH is then too high prompting the spreadsheet to tell me to add acid to the mash water.

When i do this and get a mash pH of 5.3, the bicarbonate has dropped to 59.1 ppm!!

I need to add the pickling lime to boost my calcium without overloading the chloride levels or i would have just used calcium chloride for this.

I assume that i am doing this correctly?

Also, can anyone advise what type of malt that malted oats and flaked barley are for purposes of entering into bru n water? I assume that they are base malts but they could bee crystal based on the colour...

Damn these exotic malts, ill stick to maris otter in future...

[Mr. Dripping]

I would be careful of adding bicarbonate to your water, from what I have read and heard it tastes unpleasant.
The Dublin water profile is a bit of a red herring really from what I understand. The breweries located around Dublin do not actually receive water that matches the usually quoted profile. IIRC, they actually use water that is much lower in bicarbonate.

I'm not familiar with the technique, but I have heard several articles where a mash is done with pale malt only and then the darker grains are added to the top of the mash and sparged through.
I think Guiness actually do two mashes (well a mash and a steep) and blend the two worts together. Maybe these techniques would help.

[Matt12398]

Right take a step back and start again at the beginning.

The Dublin water profile is not your best option. Consider the black and malty, black balanced and the other black one for your stout depending on what you're trying to achieve.

Also don't feel you have to match the bicarbonate levels in Bru'n Water. The alkalinity only needs to be at the required level to ensure the correct mash pH. Therefore only add as much sodium bicarbonate or alternative alkalinity raising compound are required for your mash pH to be correct. The issue with sodium bicarbonate can be that you push the sodium levels to a point over the flavour threshold however at the amounts you probably require you'll most likely find that the sodium levels are relatively low but that will entirely depend on your raw liquor profile.

Oats and flaked barley can be considered as base malts for the purposes of Bru'n Water.

[barry44]

Thanks guys.

Any thoughts on the pickling lime?

[Eric]

The chief source of water for brewing at Guinness, and probably other local breweries, was derived from filter beds at the fifth lock of the Grand Canal. It was said to be moderately hard. The Vartry water, the main supply to Dublin at the time was chiefly used by them for boilers and other purposes where soft water was found useful.
The above is from volume III of Noted Breweries of Great Britain and Ireland by Alfred Barnard written about 1890.

My last stout mash pH was 5.3 with alkalinity of 95ppm CaCO3 with the chloride level at 277ppm. I believe Guinness added chloride of lime to the canal water.

[Dave S]

It would be helpful to see the analysis of your tap water. My tap water is moderately hard with an alkalinity of around 195 ppm. I brew dry stout to the 'Black Bitter' profile using B'n W and aim for a pH of between 5.4 and 5.5 and alkalinity of approx 100 ppm.

[barry44]

Hi Dave,

ive copied this from a previous post:

I requested a water report from Scottish Water and have received the following information:

Expressed as Calcium Mg/l 5.5
Expressed as Calcium Carbonate Mg/l 13.7
Expressed as Calcium Millimoles 0.1
Expressed as French 1.4
Expressed as English 1.0
Expressed as German 0.8

They also attached a water report which gave me a Hydrogen Ion (pH) of 8 and also gave me values for the following which i have input into bru n water:

Sodium 4mg/l
Iron 16.21 ug/l or 0.016 mg/l
Sulfate 8.24 mg/l
Chloride 5.75 mg/l
Nitrate <1 mg/l
Nitrite <0.01 mg/l
Fluoride 0.04mg/l

I did not get values for Bicarbonate, Magnesium or Potassium, is this normal? I am in Glasgow so my water is soft.

From this i have derived the following values in bru n water:

Calcium - 5.5
Magnesium - 3.3
Sodium - 4
Potassium - 0
Iron - 0
Bicarbonate - 0
Carbonate - 8.2
Sulfate - 8.2
Chloride - 5.8
Nitrate - 1
Nitrite - 0
Fluoride - 0

[barry44]

Would this be all right as slaked lime:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/250gm-Calcium ... 1e79e95ead

[barry44]

Ive mucked around with the spreadsheet and have managed to get the levels pretty much spot on with the black bitter levels, it is the malt miller twisted stout i am doing which is about 44 IBU by my calculations.

I need to add acid to the mash water in order to get the pH of the mash to 5.4.

My finished water profile is:

Calcium - 58.8
Mag - 19.1
Sodium - 19.7
Sulfate - 81.8
Chloride - 39.7
Bicarbonate - 51.3

My total hardness is 226, residual hardness is -11 with an alkalinity of 42.

How does that sound?

[orlando]

Can I offer a simpler solution, steep your dark grains don't mash with them, they are not needed for the mash as they are not diastatic and are usually added for convenience. A cold steep seems to be the ideal method over say 24 hours. When ready to add to the boil gently heat and add add when close to the kettle temp. The dark grains will move your mash pH towards acidity so don't put them in the mash and it doesn't cause the problem.

[barry44]

Orlando,

many thanks for your reply but the grains have came ready crushed and mixed together as part of the kit.

However, i shall keep your advice if i ever make another stout.

[orlando]

Orlando,

many thanks for your reply but the grains have came ready crushed and mixed together as part of the kit.

However, i shall keep your advice if i ever make another stout.

Agh well hopefully this method will at least give you some encouragement that you can make one easily enough.

[Mr. Dripping]

What did you decide to use in order to raise the bicarbonate barry??

[barry44]

im looking at slaked lime, it seems to be the best option for getting it and the calcium up but then i drop the bircarbonate with acid in the mash!!

[killer]

Hi Barry,

One thing to keep firmly in mind is that the Bicarbonate figure isn't important in the same way as Calcium, Sodium, Chloride and Sulfate. These will have a direct impact on flavour and yeast health. The bicarbonate figure is an alkalinity book-keeping tool which tells you about the likely mash pH when we mash in. As such, if all your minerals (not counting bicarbonate) are in the right ballpark and the pH prediction is good once you've input the grain bill and tinkered around with salt additions, then go ahead. You don't need to match the bicarbonate figure as long as everything else is ok.