Getting started with Liquor

[ajclarkson]

Hi all,

It's about time I stopped putting it off an got to grips with water chemistry. I've dabbled before adding a bit of gypsum to the mash, but it wasn't very scientific. I've gone off and got my water report, and I've ordered a salifert kit to be sure I know if the alkalinity is moving.

Vital statistics from the water report:

Water Hardness - 101.4 mg/l as calcium = 253.5 mg/l as calcium carbonate (so HARD! as I understand it)

Calcium - 66.4mg Ca/l
Magnesium - 21.06mg Mg/l
Sulphate - 62.45mg S04/l
Sodium - 16.02mg Na/l
Chloride - 31.96mg Cl/l


I've plugged these into a couple of water calculators and had a mess around and from what I can tell, with this level of Hardness and Sulphate:Chloride ratio, its good for dark, bitter beers. Adding a couple of grams (1/2tsp) Calcium Chloride seems to bring the Sulphate:Chloride ratio back to balanced, which is probably a good starting point for Stouts / Porters.

However, I brew quite a lot of Pale Ales, so am I right in thinking I'll need to use something like CRS to really get that hardness down before thinking about adding anything else?

Also I generally treat water with half a campden tablet, I assume that won't have much of a knock on effect with these figures?

Thanks in advance for persevering with yet another newb getting used to his liquor!

[Mr. Dripping]

Yes, you will need to reduce your alkalinity for pale beers to around 30ppm ......depending on the exact grist.

The problem with using CRS is that it adds a fixed ratio of chloride and sulphate ions and this can sometimes play havoc with the chloride and sulphate ratios.....I know this to my cost
You would in my opinion be better with separate acids (and salts), then you have a choice to use either or both depending on what you are brewing. With your raw liquor profile I would suggest that sulphuric acid (reduces alkalinity and adds sulphate) would be most useful for brewing hop forward pales. You can then boost your calcium and chloride levels with a simple addition of calcium chloride.

Have you ever seen or used a brewing spreadsheet called Bru'n'Water??
If you haven't, look it up......it's free and very useful.

[ajclarkson]

Cheers for the reply,

I've seen Bru'n'Water but haven't tried that one out yet, need to reinstall my spreadsheet app but will give it a go for sure, seems to be highly recommend.

I'll definitely look into going down the separate acid route, I hadn't considered that CRS adds other things well. Looks like I need to buy some sulphuric and some Calcium Chloride at the very least.

[Rubbery]

Beware, you have a number for water hardness, not alkalinity, so you can not establish the carbonate level. You should wait for the salifert kit or get a total alkalinity reading from your water company.

Personally, I am happy with Graham's Liquor Treatment Calculator on this site for working out the CRS and salt additions.

[ajclarkson]

Thanks, I was going to wait to test it before I dive head first anyway. The next planned brew is a Dubbel, so may not need much of a tweak on that one anyway and can apply my time and learning to the beer after that!

[Rubbery]

... sorry, you can work out (guess) the carbonate by the ion balance check - I make it 108 ppm

[ajclarkson]

I've just been having a play around with Graham's Liquor Treatment Calculator and entered in my values (with hardness as CACO3), it suggests Carbonate at 140.9.

I see the ion balance check underneath the Anions at 5.93, so I'm just curious how you use that to work out the carbonate at 108ppm?

Thanks

[Rubbery]

The balance under Cations is 5.79. As you know all the numbers other than Carbonate you can adjust the carbonate until the Anions matches the Cations number exactly. A bit of trail and error lead me to 108.

The notes say that the carbonate number derived from the hardness figure is only a best guess. If all your other ions are correct, the balancing trick is going to be a much better guess.

[ajclarkson]

Much appreciated, handy trick to know. I'll still be using a salifert kit to be sure.

Just as a sanity check, here's a proposed setup for a Pale:

[Rubbery]

Yes, perfect for a dry pale ale!

... but not for a Dubbel. I don't know what profile you would use for that, but something to bring out the malt. I have only ever done one Dubbel, and I used the Porter profile, which worked for me.

[ajclarkson]

Yeah I was thinking of porter for the Dubbel, just thought I'd try the pale ale one first as it's the one that would need most adjustment based on my hard water.

Think I'll get some CRS and Calcium Chloride flakes in then as I have everything else. Will need to invest in some higher resolution scales too though.

Thanks for your help Rubbery!

[Eric]

With a Salifert kit you can measure alkalinity, otherwise with variation in the water supply the results can be misleading.

[ajclarkson]

Cheers Eric, have one on order should be here tomorrow with any luck!

[ajclarkson]

Back again!

The salifert test finally arrived today so I tested my alkalinity. It came out at 3.30meq/L which if I'm not mistaken is 165 as CaCO3 (3.3 * 50). Thats a far cry off the 235 in the water report, I'm definitely a convert to salifert and can see why you all recommend it so highly!

So I've plugged those numbers in to the water calculator once more, and just wanted to run them past your more knowledgable brains before brewing this weekend:



Can't explain why but seems odd adding 6 grams of salt to beer

Is there anything leaping out at you all as a major mistake here? Don't want to ruin the batch! Also I've seen mentioned on a few sites that I should add CRS to water and let it stand for a few minutes, but add salts to the mash grist, is that the general consensus?

Cheers again!

[Rubbery]

Yes, that looks good to me. We weren't far out on the carbonate guesswork

You can not compare the alkalinity measurement with the hardness measurement from your water report - they are different things.

I notice that because of your high Mg level you had to balance Mg/Na. This had the effect of reducing the sulphate/chloride ratio from 1:3 to ~1:2. I think this is probably a good thing for a Dubbel - it will lighten the mouthfeel and body a bit.

The salt NaCl addition is upping the chloride level for a Porter. If you want to drop it down to the Mild profile that would use less salt.

Personally, I prefer to treat all my water with CRS and salts the night before a brew. Then I can just flick a switch in the morning to get things off to an early start. I understand why some people put salts in the mash, but I think it is over-complicating what should be a simple process.