Help - hard Surrey water causing astringency etc

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norstar

Help - hard Surrey water causing astringency etc

Post by norstar » Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:07 pm

I've just moved to Wallington, Surrey and I've been told that the water here is even chalkier than down the road in Carshalton where I got a report citing 232 mg/l CaCO3 hardness and 189mgl alkalinity.

I brewed a Chimay type beer tonight, and it's a disaster. Firstly, given that I've had water problems in the past, I decided to try and keep it simple and add about 7.5ml Lactic acid to 20ml of liquor to try and bring the pH down a bit, but otherwise try not to mess around too much with the chemistry - especially as the Belgian water profile seemed to be roughly similar to ours, albeit with less hardness.

But then the pH of the liquor seemed to be about 7, and in the mash tun seemed to be about 5.7 from the start. Panicked, I added half a teaspoon of Calcium Chloride and 10ml of CRS to try and bring it down.

Well having done all that, my last runnings were 1.027 but I've ended up with about 52% efficiency - total disaster.

I'm planning on reusing my yeast cake next week with the rest of the grain, when I rack to secondary - but what can I do with this water to brew a Belgian? Or in fact anything! Shall I just clobber the pH by adding CRS per Graham's water treatment calculator and accept the Sulphate and Chloride?

I'm convinced this must be the reason why I'm ending up with astringent tones on all my beers. I've changed everything else.

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Re: Help - hard Surrey water causing astringency etc

Post by GrowlingDogBeer » Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:43 pm

You need to treat the liquor before you start the mash and very it right then.

What is your Alkalinity where you have moved to. If you don't know all you are doing trying to treat the water is pissing into the wind.

You need to test your Alkalinity. You can do this with a Salifert Alkalinty test kit. http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/220553608222?nav=SEARCH

Then send in email to the water company asking for the details for the other parameters you need to plug into a brewing water calculator.

You need to know your existing Sulphate and Chloride levels before determining the best thing to treat it with. It may be that your sulphate is low so Sulphuric Acid is best, but without knowing what you are starting with water treatment is pointless guesswork

There is no point measuring the pH of your liquor. It tells you nothing useful.

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Re: Help - hard Surrey water causing astringency etc

Post by keith1664 » Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:56 pm

Doesn't Lactic acid have a low taste threshold?

Personally I prepare my water the evening before by dosing it with sodium metabisulphite to knock out the chlorine / chloramine, then measuring the alkalinity and using either CRS and / or sulphuric acid to reduce it to where I want it to be with the sulphate / chloride ratio I want.

Measuring the ph of your mash may be a useful indication of whether you got your acid treatments right but it's too late to then try rectifying it... also don't forget that to cool the sample to room temp as ph changes with temperature,
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Re: Help - hard Surrey water causing astringency etc

Post by Eric » Thu Oct 02, 2014 12:07 am

norstar wrote:I've just moved to Wallington, Surrey and I've been told that the water here is even chalkier than down the road in Carshalton where I got a report citing 232 mg/l CaCO3 hardness and 189mgl alkalinity.
Seems a not unexpected water in Surrey, suitable for making many kinds of beer.
norstar wrote:I brewed a Chimay type beer tonight, and it's a disaster. Firstly, given that I've had water problems in the past, I decided to try and keep it simple and add about 7.5ml Lactic acid to 20ml of liquor to try and bring the pH down a bit, but otherwise try not to mess around too much with the chemistry - especially as the Belgian water profile seemed to be roughly similar to ours, albeit with less hardness.
Seems like a not unexpected Germanic/American treatment for making certain types of lager with less alkaline water.
norstar wrote:But then the pH of the liquor seemed to be about 7, and in the mash tun seemed to be about 5.7 from the start. Panicked, I added half a teaspoon of Calcium Chloride and 10ml of CRS to try and bring it down.
Yes. What was the molarity of the acid?
norstar wrote:Well having done all that, my last runnings were 1.027 but I've ended up with about 52% efficiency - total disaster.
It appears you also have a sparging problem to resolve.
norstar wrote:I'm planning on reusing my yeast cake next week with the rest of the grain, when I rack to secondary - but what can I do with this water to brew a Belgian? Or in fact anything! Shall I just clobber the pH by adding CRS per Graham's water treatment calculator and accept the Sulphate and Chloride?
Graham's calculator doesn't include any Belgian profiles. I'm sure his contribution here would put matters, and the advice you're following, into perspective.
norstar wrote:I'm convinced this must be the reason why I'm ending up with astringent tones on all my beers. I've changed everything else.
Could be.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

AnthonyUK

Re: Help - hard Surrey water causing astringency etc

Post by AnthonyUK » Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:57 am

Hi,
I'm not to far away and also have similar issues.
Of the treatments I've tried which are CRS and phosphoric I'm still not 100% satisfied with the results.
My best efforts have been using Tesco Ashbeck water for some or all of my water.

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Re: Help - hard Surrey water causing astringency etc

Post by Andy » Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:10 am

norstar wrote: about 7.5ml Lactic acid to 20ml of liquor

Units typo ?
Dan!

norstar

Re: Help - hard Surrey water causing astringency etc

Post by norstar » Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:11 am

Just a bit of a typo yes! Sorry, meant 20 litres obviously. That would be UBER acidic wouldn't it if 7.5ml/20ml.

The alkalinity is apparently 189mgl. The sulphate and chloride about 30 each. Calcium 90, Mg under 10 and sodium 30 (from memory).

Usually my sparging is quite efficient as I slowly run the water through a perforated foil layer, and I don't rush it. Took me 45 mins last night I think. However I do think I ran off too much liquid for the mash itself so it was quite runny - assume with a high pH water that might reduce the buffering effect?

I think the Lactic acid is 50%. I haven't used it in a while, instead going the CRS route.

I suppose it might be better to revert to the CRS route again then - and just aim to get Alkalinity down to 20, then treat the water to give me 1:1 sulphate chloride ratio - albeit with higher amounts?

On the other hand, I might try that Tesco Ashbeck route. Is there a profile posted here for it?

AnthonyUK

Re: Help - hard Surrey water causing astringency etc

Post by AnthonyUK » Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:41 am

I treat Ashbeck as RO as it contains virtually nothing.
This thread has some details if you want to be more accurate.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=44958

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Re: Help - hard Surrey water causing astringency etc

Post by Eric » Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:52 am

It would seem by the mash pH that you used insufficient acid to sufficiently reduce alkalinity. According to Murphy 7.5ml of 80% lacitic acid in only 1 litre of water would reduce alkalinity by just 78ppm, so at first glance something looks out of place.
With last runnings at 1027 and the low efficiency it appears there must have been lots of converted sugars left in the mash which I would have thought would prevent extraction of other products.
If you can't measure alkalinity or the effect of your acid treatment it would pay you to buy a kit that you might better know the circumstances of your mash.
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norstar

Re: Help - hard Surrey water causing astringency etc

Post by norstar » Thu Oct 02, 2014 1:03 pm

I just use the pH paper strips that go from about 4.8 - 7. I've ordered some that cover a narrower range now though.

Thanks for the link to the Tesco water. I'll give that a go on the next one for comparative purposes and see what goes on.

The Lactic Acid additions were per our LHBS who recommended 4ml in 20l of sparge water. Does seem low but they also recommend Gypsum etc. Problem is, when I fed their additions into Graham's water calculator, the sulphate & chloride were off the chart!

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Re: Help - hard Surrey water causing astringency etc

Post by WallyBrew » Thu Oct 02, 2014 1:08 pm

Eric wrote: According to Murphy 7.5ml of 80% lacitic acid in only 1 litre of water would reduce alkalinity by just 78ppm, so at first glance something looks out of place.
Just another load of tosh there :o

Let's hope that nobody is following that sheet

!mL of 80% lactic will neutralise 528 (+/-20)mg of calcium carbonate
Last edited by WallyBrew on Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Help - hard Surrey water causing astringency etc

Post by Eric » Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:16 pm

WallyBrew wrote:
Eric wrote: According to Murphy 7.5ml of 80% lacitic acid in only 1 litre of water would reduce alkalinity by just 78ppm, so at first glance something looks out of place.
Just another load of tosh there :o

Let's hope that nobody is following that sheet

1mL of 80% lactic will neutralise 528 (=/-20)mg of calcium carbonate
Did we come across something like this before?
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

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Re: Help - hard Surrey water causing astringency etc

Post by Andy » Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:23 pm

Murphy's datasheet for their Sulphuric acid.
Dan!

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Re: Help - hard Surrey water causing astringency etc

Post by Dave S » Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:39 pm

norstar wrote:I just use the pH paper strips that go from about 4.8 - 7. I've ordered some that cover a narrower range now though.

Thanks for the link to the Tesco water. I'll give that a go on the next one for comparative purposes and see what goes on.

The Lactic Acid additions were per our LHBS who recommended 4ml in 20l of sparge water. Does seem low but they also recommend Gypsum etc. Problem is, when I fed their additions into Graham's water calculator, the sulphate & chloride were off the chart!
Don't trust the Tesco Value water, it changes like the wind. I treated a brew a while back based on that analysis and it turned out that the alkalinity in it was near as damn it the same as my own tap water, (high) - result - complete cock up. As Eric mentioned above you could save yourself a whole load of pain by getting an alkalinity test kit and measuring each and every brew.
Best wishes

Dave

AnthonyUK

Re: Help - hard Surrey water causing astringency etc

Post by AnthonyUK » Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:38 pm

Tesco value is not the same as Ashbeck which hasn't changed in years AFAIK.

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