Best way to proceed with water treatment

[will_raymo2000]

Hi all,

Hoping to brew a Hoegaarden Clone this Monday and just wondered the best way to go with water treatment for the day. Previously I have just filled the HLT with full volume and treated with a campden the night before and CRS the day of.

Playing around with water calculators I think CRS is pushing the chloride way too high amongst others.

My water as it stands from Anglian Water report:
Hardness as CaCO3 425.5
Chloride 56.5
Calcium 153
Magnesium 10.5
Sodium 28.7
Sulphate 87.6
pH 7.2

The profile I was going to follow from here: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f71/hoegaar ... te-133873/ is Ca 35, Mg 21.3, Na 21, SO4 54, Cl 39, HCO3 105.3.

Doing any sort of treatment with CRS alone pushes Cl sky high and there is no way I can get calcium down without pre-boiling which seems like a right pain on a 77L total liquor (and a lot of money for elec or gas).

Which brings me to my next condundrum... My LHBS doesn't stock any other forms of acid or fun things like that so thats out the question for Monday. My other thought was to get a filter like so (http://www.screwfix.com/p/high-capacity ... t-10/16747) but by looking at other threads on here it seems that the filter would only eliminate the need for the campden tablet and not much else.

So... I'm stuck! Any help?
With such a volume of water i'd like to avoid having to go to tesco and buy 40L of ashbeck but if thats the only option then I guess i'll have to!

[AnthonyUK]

Have you considered using some Ashbeck to dilute your profile? It doesn't have to be all or nothing

[will_raymo2000]

I think it might have to be. My total water for Monday's brew is 77L so I may dilute with half of that. Is there a calculator out there to work out what the final water profile may be? I guess bru n water would do it but wondered if there's something slightly simpler?

Cheers

[Eric]

The most important measurement for brewing with water like yours is missing, alkalinity. It can easily be measured using a Salifert kit available for about £7 from Ebay which will last a you a year or two.
From the numbers you have, alkalinity would appear to be in excess of 300ppm CaCO3, almost 400ppm bicarbonate. Maybe the best option for a brew on Monday might be to use Ashbeck as advised. It would however be cumbersome and expensive as a minority would be your untreated water with Ashbeck to produce a suitable water. A better option in the longer term might be to come to terms with your water. Have you tried brewing using CRS or is it what others have reported that puts you off CRS?
CRS may not your best option and each such brew would need more than 100 ml of that product to get alkalinity under control, but unless your object is to brew something near to being tasteless, CRS is worth trying. I ofter wonder what the world's opinion was of choride content in beer if CRS was available in the US of A.

[Eric]

I think it might have to be. My total water for Monday's brew is 77L so I may dilute with half of that. Is there a calculator out there to work out what the final water profile may be? I guess bru n water would do it but wondered if there's something slightly simpler?

Cheers

To be quite frank, I'd advise you used no more than 1 part of your own water with its apparent level of alkalinity with 9 parts Ashbeck. Sparge with 100% Ashbech.
I only answered because you asked.

[will_raymo2000]

Cheers for the suggestions Eric. I have tested the allalinity before using my salifert kit and it came out at around 275ppm.

I have used CRS upto this point but only really looked at getting the hardness down and hadn't considered the effect on the other ions until playing with the calculator which showed the sulphate and chloride ions being far higher than target.

I now have 40L of Ashbeck ready. Do you reckon my best bet is to brew full length with ashbeck or would I be able to dilute with my tap water and perhaps a dash of CRS to soften my tap water?

Looking into the future it is not economical to keep buying bottled water so.. Small reverse osmosis set up? Would that bring me down to a workable level of ions to then tweak to the style required? There are some units at around £40-50 and then a variety from there on upwards.. Is there much difference besides the GPD figures?

[keith1664]

I'd not brew using Anglian Waters alkalinity figures, they are way too high whenever I've compared them to a Salifert test or professional water analysis.
My analysis came back as

Calcium 116.9
Chloride 56.6
Sulphate 51
Magnesium 4.7
Alkalinity as CaCO3 228

Personally I use a combination of CRS (but only until it runs out, then I'll get some Hydrochloric acid) and Sulphuric and a water calculator and juggle the additions until I get the alkalinity where I want it with the RATIO of the Sulphites and Chlorides correct for the style of beer. I don't bother with the actual numbers, my beer comes out just fine.

[Pinto]

Agree with the above - if you're trying to make a precise copy of a water profile, you're only real route to that would be distilled/RO water and build it yourself.

[millmaster]

It may be too late now - but before your next brew check out - http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?ti ... pH_control - and in particular the section on bringing down alkalinity with slaked lime section 3.2.2.4 which links to - http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?ti ... laked_lime

I used that method in an IPA brew today and brought alkalinity down from ~235 ( Cambridge water ) to ~90 ( both as ppm Carbonate as measured by Salifert test ) by adding slaked lime ( I used Chuna Lime Paste from the Asian cook shop or any good Indian supermarket near you ). Its counter intuitive - adding an alkali to get rid of alkalinity, but it works. Kai explains it in the article far better than I can, but you dont end up adding salts or acids you dont want and the calcium you add in the slaked lime drops out with the carbonate you get rid of, so you arent adding excess Calcium either. You will need to leave the treated water for at least 24 and preferably 48 hours for the precipitated chalk to settle out - old Ashbeck bottles work well in this role.

Then you can add the sulphate and chloride you want from salts ( gypsum and calcium chloride )( in the mash tun ) to the level you want for the brew you're making. Actually, given what you have and what you want for the Hoegaarden clone, I'd not bother changing anything else, its close enough ( IMHO ). Or mix two thirds treated one third Ashbeck and chuck a bit of Epsom salts in.

[BenB]

That looks an interesting link. The only bit which doesn't appear to make sense to me is that in the photo instructions it says to add the salts (specifically mentioning chalk) when you add the lime. Chemistry was never my strong point (as my A-level chemistry teacher would confirm!) but surely any chalk added just before creating a load of chalk (in excess of the solubility of chalk itself) and precipitating out a load of chalk is going to do precisely sweet FA as it will be the first bit of chalk to precipitate. Adding it to the mash tun makes more sense as you say. I might well give that a go- lots of Asian supermarkets round here so should be able to get hold of some. Then again, a good chemistry supplier would able to source it and they usually specify any impurities.

Millmaster- does the paste give a percentage of calcium hydroxide? Presumably it's a mixture of water and calcium hydroxide so you would need to account for the level of hydration when weighing.

[Eric]

That looks an interesting link. The only bit which doesn't appear to make sense to me is that in the photo instructions it says to add the salts (specifically mentioning chalk) when you add the lime. Chemistry was never my strong point (as my A-level chemistry teacher would confirm!) but surely any chalk added just before creating a load of chalk (in excess of the solubility of chalk itself) and precipitating out a load of chalk is going to do precisely sweet FA as it will be the first bit of chalk to precipitate. Adding it to the mash tun makes more sense as you say. I might well give that a go- lots of Asian supermarkets round here so should be able to get hold of some. Then again, a good chemistry supplier would able to source it and they usually specify any impurities.

Millmaster- does the paste give a percentage of calcium hydroxide? Presumably it's a mixture of water and calcium hydroxide so you would need to account for the level of hydration when weighing.

Put very crudely, it works because of the excess calcium present and when there isn't enough present it's necessary to add more. This has been known and practised since the eighteenth century or earlier, recorded in books on brewing written in that century. It happens when putting slaked lime into my tap water when cleaning beer lines. Adding the correct amount is a major difficulty as a small amount of excess calcium hydroxide will have the exact opposite effect intended.

[millmaster]

Millmaster- does the paste give a percentage of calcium hydroxide? Presumably it's a mixture of water and calcium hydroxide so you would need to account for the level of hydration when weighing.

The paste I bought does not give a percentage of Calcium Hydroxide. I ran a few trials using 5L bottles of water and the weights of 100% slaked lime according to Kai's water calculator ( can be downloaded from his site ) and it seems the paste I bought gives about 50% of the reduction that would be expected from 100% slaked lime so I use twice as much.

Eric's point about not adding too much is very valid.

I think you could/would avoid any problems that could stem from overdoing it by carrying out Salifert tests before ( to work out how much lime to add ) and after ( to find out whether you overdid it or not ). I did both before and after Salifert tests and checked the pH of the treated water, finding it to be about 7 using pH test papers. If its 9 or 10 or higher then its clear too much lime has been added. I wasnt aiming for zero alkalinity either though.

As I understand things the point of putting a bit of chalk in before adding the lime is to give sites for the stuff you are trying to precipitate out to form on, to "encourage" the formation of the precipitate - I didnt bother doing that.

[gary.hayward]

If brewing wheat beer add 3:1 Calcium Chloride:Sulphate. If you use well modified English malt you should get a very good result. Adjust the pH by calcium addition to 5.4. However if using high protein unmodified malt. Eg European or beyond. Mash the malt with no water treatment and adjust the copper to pH 5.4 with sulphuric hydrochloric or lactic acid. (Or calcium salts)