Water treatment for high Alkalinity

[will_raymo2000]

Have just got my results back from WallyBrew and he agrees that I have the highest Alkalinity he's ever seen!

Sodium: 29.6
Potassium: 5.6
Magnesium: 10
Calcium: 151
Chloride: 53.9
Nitrate: 19.4
Phosphate: 1.1
Sulphate: 86
Total Alkalinity: 306
pH: 7.2


Putting these figures into Graham Wheelers calculator and using CRS to reduce carbonates results in nearly 80ml CRS for 50L liquor which is going to add a lot of other ions which aren't that desirable isn't it?

In Bru'n'water it gives a bit more detail but I still don't know the best way of reducing the carbonates in the water without messing up the rest of the water profile. Does anyone have any suggestions about where to start?

Cheers,
Will

[AnthonyUK]

I'm in the same situation and the only real option is to dilute your water with a known low alkalinity one such as Tesco Ashbeck or RO if you have access to it.
There is an option for dilution in BruNwater and I think I added Ashbeck data in as a custom profile.
This may only be an option in the paid version.

[Charles1968]

Tesco clearview is only 12p a litre and is the same as ashbeck. Only £2 or so for enough to dilute your liquor to an acceptable alkalinity. 25 litres of reverse osmosis water from a pet shop is also about £2. Or even cheaper would be rainwater if you can collect it - extremely low alkalinity, but not sterile so only use pre-boil.

[barneey]

Either by dilution as mentioned, or by using 2 acids namely Sulphuric & Hydrochloric

[will_raymo2000]

Either by dilution as mentioned, or by using 2 acids namely Sulphuric & Hydrochloric

Yeah thats what I thought, have just been playing with sulphuric acid additions in Bru'n'water but also then saw your thread expressing concerns about the availability of sulphuric acid. Is the acid from Murphys homebrew suitable Barneey? http://www.murphyhomebrew.com/liquor-tr ... d_111.html

[barneey]

First & forth most buy yourself an alkalinity testing kit, this will enable you to test the alkalinity before and after water treatment, this is very important.

Where ever you buy your acid from, it is good practice to "confirm" what the actual strength of that acid is, DONT rely on the label. A simple test would be to treat 5L of water with a set amount of acid, taking the Alkalinity before and after the acid treatment would then give you the strength of the acid you have bought.

Have a play with any of the water calculators available to see what / how Sulphuric acid will change your water, with Alkalinity such as yours using 2 acids can help keep the Sulphate / Chloride ratios / figures in check.

[will_raymo2000]

Is there any way in the brunwater calculator or paid version to calculate with multiple acid additions?

[barneey]

The only way you will do that is to enter the info twice, ie do the first adjustment see what the result is /use that and enter that profile.

Or as an alternative tell us what you intend to brew, ie is it a pale ale / stout etc and based on your water profile suggestions can be made of what quantities to use

[Eric]

Is there any way in the brunwater calculator or paid version to calculate with multiple acid additions?

The maths are simple enough without a calculator.

Sodium: 29.6
Potassium: 5.6
Magnesium: 10
Calcium: 151
Chloride: 53.9
Nitrate: 19.4
Phosphate: 1.1
Sulphate: 86
Total Alkalinity: 306

Cations, the first 4 above will not change when using acid, which will reduce the alkalinity.
Hydrochloric acid will increase chloride at 71ppm for every 100ppm reduction in alkalinity as CaCO3.
Sulphuric acid will increase sulphates by 96ppm for every 100ppm reduction in alkalinity as CaCO3.

Use sulphuric to remove 2/3rds of the alkalinity reduction and hydrochloric for the other third to get a decent profile for a bitter, use hydrochloric only to leave 100ppm alkalinity and you've a profile for a stout or porter, a lot cheaper than buying water in bottles.

Murphy's sulphuric is fine, just a lot stronger than they claim.

[Charles1968]

The excellent & very user-friendly water calculator on brewersfriend allows you to calculate effect of CRS, which is a mixture of sulphuric and hydrochloric acid.

Be careful with acids as they raise chloride and sulphate levels. You'll fix your alkalinity but might end up with salt-flavoured beer. Dilution is a better solution

[AnthonyUK]

CRS/AMS or a mix of Sulphuric and Hydrochloric will push your sulphate and chloride outside of limits that I would prefer to use which is why I suggested dilution.
If you're happy with a minerally profile give it a try but it isn't for everyone.

[Eric]

Have just got my results back from WallyBrew and he agrees that I have the highest Alkalinity he's ever seen!

Sodium: 29.6
Potassium: 5.6
Magnesium: 10
Calcium: 151
Chloride: 53.9
Nitrate: 19.4
Phosphate: 1.1
Sulphate: 86
Total Alkalinity: 306
pH: 7.2


Putting these figures into Graham Wheelers calculator and using CRS to reduce carbonates results in nearly 80ml CRS for 50L liquor which is going to add a lot of other ions which aren't that desirable isn't it?

In Bru'n'water it gives a bit more detail but I still don't know the best way of reducing the carbonates in the water without messing up the rest of the water profile. Does anyone have any suggestions about where to start?

Cheers,
Will

Hi Will,

The answer is in your own hands, the advice is all here, take your pick or better, try all.
While your water is extreme, if you care to read the datasheet here you should find that your water properly treated using a mix of sulphuric and hydrochloric acids is unsuitable for only one of the listed styles of beer. There will forever be individuals who will drink just that style, or another, and castigate the rest, more so understandably by some who reside in nations where British styles made with British ingredients, British yeasts and natural British waters have little exposure to be inevitably less understood.

Incidently, I took a sample from a local burn a short distance from its spring near my home on 10th of October with alkalinity that measured 342mg/l CaCO3. Total Dissolved Solids measured 456ppm. An adjacent burn with a longer run from its source had TDS of 1100ppm and I didn't try to find what alkalinity it had but guess it would be much more than 500ppm. That might be too much, but I won't know until I try.

Good luck.

[byronb]

I've been using phosphoric acid to reduce my alkalinity from a max of 303ppm. There's always been something not quite right about the beer though, it isn't bad, just has something very slightly off and difficult to describe.

For my last beer (Seymour Citra Gold so 97% MO, 3% oats) I used CRS to get 100ppm chloride and 156ppm sulphate. This reduced my alkalinity to ~80ppm and I used a much smaller amount of phosphoric acid to reduce this to 20ppm. Mash included 2.9g calcium sulphate to give 150 calcium, 7.9 magnesium, 19.4 sodium, 200 sulphate, 100 chloride. Mash pH measured 5.5 so I added 0.5ml more phosphoric to get this to 5.4.

That beer is still in the FV so too early to say if this has fixed it, but after 8 days it tasted very good. I'm thinking of getting separate hydrochloric and sulphuric acid so I can keep phosphoric acid to a minimum without taking sulphate and chloride too high. Interested to hear any thoughts on this water treatment.

[Charles1968]

Eric's right - you can probably get the water right for bitter and porter. Not pale lager though.

[Eric]

Eric's right - you can probably get the water right for bitter and porter. Not pale lager though.

No, he'd never be able to make Duff Beer using that water, will he?