Water treatment for high Alkalinity

[WallyBrew]

Read the very last sentence of my post

[will_raymo2000]

Can someone check if i'm using the brewers friend calculator correctly?

My target profile is: Ca 130, Mg 20, Na 30, Cl 50, SO4 100, HCO 50

For 59L water in total (19 mash, 40 sparge) 7.2kg pilsner malt
I have ticked precipitate CaCO3 and also decant water (recommending 17.2gm slaked lime). Also adding Lactic Acid at 0.4ml per L (which I believe is taste threshold??)

Adding 3gm Epsom Salts to up the Mg and Sulphates a tad I have ended up with:

Ca 123, Mg 15, Na 29.6, Cl 53.9, SO4 105.8, HCO 18.64

Which results in a nearly target profile and a predicted mash pH of 5.53 and a sulphate/chloride of 2:1

Am I along the right lines or way off?

[Charles1968]

Read the very last sentence of my post

Fossil water from an aquifer is not what comes out of most people's taps. Again you're using an exceptional and unusual existence to try and disprove the existence of a norm. In practice, most people can disregard the presence of sodium carbonate in tapwater as it isn't there. Unless you live in a desert and use water from a well. I'll grant you that it does raise alkalinity while lowering calcium hardness.

[Charles1968]

Can someone check if i'm using the brewers friend calculator correctly?

My target profile is: Ca 130, Mg 20, Na 30, Cl 50, SO4 100, HCO 50

For 59L water in total (19 mash, 40 sparge) 7.2kg pilsner malt
I have ticked precipitate CaCO3 and also decant water (recommending 17.2gm slaked lime). Also adding Lactic Acid at 0.4ml per L (which I believe is taste threshold??)

Adding 3gm Epsom Salts to up the Mg and Sulphates a tad I have ended up with:

Ca 123, Mg 15, Na 29.6, Cl 53.9, SO4 105.8, HCO 18.64

Which results in a nearly target profile and a predicted mash pH of 5.53 and a sulphate/chloride of 2:1

Am I along the right lines or way off?

That's amazingly close. If you're boiling to reduce alkalinity, you need to do it for at least 15 minutes.

[Jim]

Charles1968.

Approximately 6 months ago you came onto this forum asking for advice about water treatment. You are now not only attempting to give authoritative advice on it to others, but you are arguing the toss with a professional water chemist who is trying to put you right.

Please take notice of those who know what they're talking about!

[will_raymo2000]

Can someone check if i'm using the brewers friend calculator correctly?

My target profile is: Ca 130, Mg 20, Na 30, Cl 50, SO4 100, HCO 50

For 59L water in total (19 mash, 40 sparge) 7.2kg pilsner malt
I have ticked precipitate CaCO3 and also decant water (recommending 17.2gm slaked lime). Also adding Lactic Acid at 0.4ml per L (which I believe is taste threshold??)

Adding 3gm Epsom Salts to up the Mg and Sulphates a tad I have ended up with:

Ca 123, Mg 15, Na 29.6, Cl 53.9, SO4 105.8, HCO 18.64

Which results in a nearly target profile and a predicted mash pH of 5.53 and a sulphate/chloride of 2:1

Am I along the right lines or way off?

That's amazingly close. If you're boiling to reduce alkalinity, you need to do it for at least 15 minutes.

I still can't get onto the Kai website to read his procedure for the slaked lime treatment but does that need boiling as well? I didn't tick the boiling water box on brewersfriend.

[Aleman]

I still can't get onto the Kai website to read his procedure for the slaked lime treatment but does that need boiling as well? I didn't tick the boiling water box on brewersfriend.

Shame that Brukaiser is down for maintenance This is AJ deLanges guide for using slaked lime at home, which derives from Hubert Hangofers work on the HBD some years ago.
Add 1tsp of precipitated chalk for every 5 (US) gallons (18.9L) of water to be treated Multiply the alkalinity of the water to be treated by 0.74 to get a rough idea of the amount of slaked lime you will need in mg to treat 1L. Then multiply by the number of litres to be treated and divide by 1000 to get the number of grams for the entire volume. Increase the result from step 2 by 20-30%, and place this in a small beaker or flask. Add enough water to get this int suspension Add the slurry from step 3 to the water initially in large then increasingly smaller increments.Stir thoroughly and check the pH between each addition Continue additions fairly rapidly until a pH of 9.5 to 10.0 is reached Monitor the pH. As precipitation takes place the pH will fall back At this point add only small amounts of slurry to maintain the pH in the 9.5 to 10.0 region pH will continue to drop as CO2 from the air is dissolved but the rate of drop will slow. When it does, stop the lime slurry addition and let the water sit while the precipitate settles. Decant the water from the precipitate and measure alkalinity and calcium levels Its a fairly complex procedure, and I suspect that Kai has simplified it somewhat

Ca 123, Mg 15, Na 29.6, Cl 53.9, SO4 105.8, HCO 18.64

That's amazingly close.

Yet you are saying that pilsner requires soft water and that profile with 123 calcium and 15 magnesium can only be considered hard! The alkalinity on the other hand is low .

There is no carbonate in water - it's insoluble.

Your assertion that carbonate is never found in water is also incorrect . . . it is unlikely, but depending on the pH the carbonate ion (CO3-) (note not calcium carbonate!) will exist in water in fact the whole CO2 / bicarbonate / carbonate thing in water is an equilibrium which can be described as

CO2 + H2O <-> H2CO3 <-> H+ + HCO3- <-> H+ + CO3-

Where <-> means "in equilibrium with"

Back to the OP

Firstly No need to add magnesium as the malt supplies more than enough required by the east and with your original profile you are already well above the threshold . . . consider adding some gypsum instead . . . . having more calcium than suggested in the desired profile is not bad.
Secondly, avoid lactic acid completely especially at the level you are talking about, it is detectable, especially in a pilsner style beer.

[will_raymo2000]

Cheers Aleman, have swapped over to phosphoric at 75% from THBS at 0.35ml/L and also 3g gypsum instead of Epsom Salts. Have ended up at

Ca 133, Mg 10, Cl 29.6, Cl 53.9, SO4 114, HCO3 14, Mash pH 5.52