Sanity check- first go with Bru'n Water

[Jocky]

There's a lot of differing opinions of how much calcium you need. Previously it's been thought that as its essential for adjusting the mash pH, precipitating proteins in the boil and as a yeast nutrient while having little negative effect that it was better to err on the side of too much rather than too little.

A more cynical person might also say that Brupaks would want to encourage excessive use of their product.

I believe that Bru'nWater has recommendations for calcium based upon the author's own research, and the explanation for the 50-100 ppm range recommendation is provided on his site here:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge

[BenB]

That's a very good point Jocky- a water treatment company will want to sell lots of water treatments
Well let's see what happens- cutting my tap water with 50% Ashbeck and a bit of CRS seems to create an almost perfect profile apart from alkalinity and the mash pH appears to be spot on so I'll go with it and see what happens.

[Aleman]

Can't think why they recommend the calcium levels to be so high unless it's just to get the sulphate and chloride amounts up... I'll get there in the end!

Because that is what British brewers use! Martin is a proponent of the very low mineralisation of liquor school of thought, just in case you add something to the beer that makes it taste of something!!!

He has said on here that we do not need to add calcium to a beer as the malt will supply it all . . . Yeah right, my water has bugger all in it and without treatment the beers are ho hum, adding calcium (and chloride) makes the flavours sing and rounds them out. Martin says if you have sulphate greater than 150 avoid chloride greater than 50 . . . again a massive no! in the 1800's Breweries all over the country were buying water from Burton (and Burton breweries for that matter) so they high levels of sulphate and chloride. I brewed a Fullers IPA from the 1897 Ledger (IIRC) and that had a requirement for a "full Gypsous liquor".

As I've said before do not get confused by Alkalinity and residual alkalinity, they are not the same thing, real alkalinity cannot be negative, residual alkalinity because it is a calculated value can be especially when you have high levels of calcium and magnesium and a low real measured alkalinity.

[sonicated]

If your alkalinity is off doesn't that mean it will negatively affect the mash?

When I understand all this I will do it all for people from their water profiles for £20 a time and become, very, very rich. Anyone want £20?

[Aleman]

There's a lot of differing opinions of how much calcium you need. Previously it's been thought that as its essential for adjusting the mash pH, precipitating proteins in the boil and as a yeast nutrient while having little negative effect that it was better to err on the side of too much rather than too little.

No, it's not been thought that that was what it was for, it has been proven repeatedly that that is what it does

A more cynical person might also say that Brupaks would want to encourage excessive use of their product.

I'm one of those cynical people, but more and more as I research I actually think those levels are not all that wrong, and they have such a wide range they take in most of the water types in the UK. I just wouldn't use their products to achieve the results

I believe that Bru'nWater has recommendations for calcium based upon the author's own research, and the explanation for the 50-100 ppm range recommendation is provided on his site here:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge

[Goulders]

BenB I sent you a PM, but you haven't picked it up yet...

[WallyBrew]

Maybe all should read the thread with the original advert for Bru'n Water.

As such I do not have a problem with Bru'n water but the author is something else.

At the time of that thread Bru'n Water contained significant errors. The author was not prepared to readily admit such problems existed.

Strangely though, without any acknowledgement that such errors existed changes were made to Bru'n Water to correct that which was wrong.

The worst part is that the author at no time put on the website that errors existed in the spreadsheet. This did not matter weather you had the free version or the paid for version.

There may still be people out there using the free version from that time and they will be none the wiser that that spreadsheet contains error

I have no idea about much newer versions of Bru'n Water or the ethos of the author

[barneey]

Ben, what is wrong with your existing tap water, do you know its make up?

[Dave S]

Can't think why they recommend the calcium levels to be so high unless it's just to get the sulphate and chloride amounts up... I'll get there in the end!

Because that is what British brewers use! Martin is a proponent of the very low mineralisation of liquor school of thought, just in case you add something to the beer that makes it taste of something!!!

He has said on here that we do not need to add calcium to a beer as the malt will supply it all . . . Yeah right, my water has bugger all in it and without treatment the beers are ho hum, adding calcium (and chloride) makes the flavours sing and rounds them out. Martin says if you have sulphate greater than 150 avoid chloride greater than 50 . . . again a massive no! in the 1800's Breweries all over the country were buying water from Burton (and Burton breweries for that matter) so they high levels of sulphate and chloride. I brewed a Fullers IPA from the 1897 Ledger (IIRC) and that had a requirement for a "full Gypsous liquor".

As I've said before do not get confused by Alkalinity and residual alkalinity, they are not the same thing, real alkalinity cannot be negative, residual alkalinity because it is a calculated value can be especially when you have high levels of calcium and magnesium and a low real measured alkalinity.

+1 to that. My base chloride is by B'nW standards quite high at 110. Earlier I thought of ways to reduce it - adding RO etc. For the last year or so I have been actively increasing it to 150 or more, whatever Sulphate:Chloride ratio I've been aiming at and my beers have improved significantly.

Ben, you might also consider that whatever amount of calcium you add to the mash a goodly amount of it will get left behind due to reactions with phosphates in the grain and will not carry through to the boil and FV. Calcium is vital to those processes as well as the mash. I tend to aim for around 100 in the mash and 150 or more in the boil knowing it will actually be much less, but hopefully enough.

[barneey]

Also have a read up on phosphoric acid

I wouldn't use it personally

[BenB]

Strange- thought I'd posted a reply but it's not appearing!

Thanks for the head's up re the PM Goulders.

Yes, got my water analysed by Wallybrew:

Alkalinity: 211
Calcium: 99
Magnesium: 4.3
Sodium: 29.1
Chloride: 43.3
Sulphate 44.3

( Nitrate 25.6, Phosphate 4.5, Potassium 5.8 )

It's not terrible water, just harder than average for London and I might struggle if brewing lagers (I've got a yearning to brew an Oktoberfest on my birthday in March and leave it in my second brew fridge over the summer)....

what's wrong with phosphoric BTW? I now it's pretty damn nasty stuff but beyond that.....

[Eric]

Yup. Officially very confused.
The brown balanced profile shows Calcium levels of 50ppm yet the Brupaks CRS/DLS instructions (which I've been using to this point) show a suggested calcium level of 180-220ppm for bitters. Which is somewhat different!

I think I'm doing something wrong here! I've just done a dummy run using my local water cut 50% with Ashbeck. The profile looks good and balanced with a mash pH of 5.37 yet the calcium is 54.5ppm. Which is what Bru'n water suggests but completely not what Brupaks recommend.

Can't think why they recommend the calcium levels to be so high unless it's just to get the sulphate and chloride amounts up... I'll get there in the end!

Yup. You're looking at two sides of a very large divide. Both are workable as is and every stage between, just that the same rules do not apply exactly the same across that range, and the resulting beers will be equally varied.

Brupaks repack Murphy's products and reprint their data, this link lists the originals giving additional information. Threads regularly identify the different mineral levels advised by Murphy and Bru'nWater, but is this not because they class beers differently, a bit like in the song "Let's Call the Whole Thing Off"? The table at the bottom of the page on mashing liquor calls a beer made with 50ppm calcium as Lager while Bru'nWater advises this makes a Bitter which should have a low levels of chloride. Then frequently the thread continues becoming bogged down with mash pH.

Brewing developed over many centuries, but until relatively recently in this timescale most had been produced locally at whatever quality and standard that was. Only when there were better transport networks did better beer from one region displace poorer beer in others. This happened in the British Isles first with ships at sea and on some rivers, then the canal network and later with railways and the beers that dominated came from places like Burton, Tadcaster, London, Edinburgh and Dublin, all regions with high levels of calcium in their water. Don't swallow the B.S. that Guinness always used soft water from the Wicklow Mountains, their water used to come from the Grand Canal and when they eventually got soft water it was used not for making beer but to feed the boilers.

On the technical side, alkalinity isn't good for brewing, it needs to be low. Calcium is good for brewing, just read the datasheets of Murphy, and in the process lowers mash pH while alkalinity will raise it. When there is very little calcium in the mash even with low alkalinity, mash pH will be too high to make beer without faults and astringency, and this problem faces brewers in all regions with very soft water. As mentioned, Kohlbach did work measuring pH at knockout to produce a formula to calculate the hyperthetical so called residual alkalinity from measured alkalinity and the amounts of calcium and magnesium in the liquor. German purity laws prohibited the addition of calcium salt that would solve such a problem, but with malt infected with bacteria (lactobacillus) that created lactic acid, that acidity would bring the mash pH into the accepted range so that drinkable beers could be made with lower levels of calcium. Such beers have the other problems that lack of calcium will cause, insufficient oxalate deposits in the mash to cause beerstone on the FV, kidney stones in the drinker and hazes in the beer; poor protein deposits in the kettle causing haze and other detractions, and restricted choice of yeast due to the lower calcium available for fermentation. I doubt if Martin has ever had his beer analysed showing how much calcium is left.

The brewers where Kolbach did his work overcame the remaining problems by lagering, beers left for months at very low temperatures until those unwanted products sedimented while modern techniques like filtering and being centrifuged speed up that process. Meanwhile, if you want a beer by the beginning of February, ensure there's enough calcium in your water, even if it means there's more than 100ppm chloride and you can taste malt.

[barneey]

What about also looking at the recommended profiles http://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/water.html

[barneey]

Anyone know what this white sludge maybe after water treatment with phosphoric acid?

[barneey]

Just another food for thought post.

In a recent "private" beer swap consisting of 21 members a water profile with something actually in it won outright, it is also know what was in the profile at various stages throughout the brew and what the final composition of the beer was after fermentation.

There was no comments of "minerally", I do expect, we will more than likely get the same old don't do this or that comments, who knows this thread might increase sales in water calculators, most are FREE though.

If you are able get hold of some commercial beer analysis, you might be surprised at the make up of the final beer.

Guess the mineral content of Bud