What minimum water treatment to do...

[chris172]

Totally confused and doesn't matter how many times I read articles about water chemistry it just doesn't stick.

Not getting great results form the brews I've done so far with my BM and unsure if it's the recipe packs I'm buying or the water.

Tried doing nothing ... straight out of the tap
Tried boiling for 30mins and cleaning any residual out the BM
Tried a campden tablet


What do you think would be a simple and easy to understand approach to brew a Sitra Recipe Pack 23L ?

Any help or advice welcomed

TIA Chris


My Salifert kit result is 6.1 in DKH or 2.16 in meq/L eh?

My Water Report

Total hardness as.....
Calcium (mg/l) 72.7
Calcium carbonate (mg/l) 181.75
Degrees Clark (°Clark or °e) 12.65
Degrees French (°f) 18.175
Degrees German (°dH) 10.323
millimoles (mmol/l of Ca) 1.818

Calcium- mg/l 55.5
Chloride- mg/l 32
Magnesium- mg/l 6.3
Sodium- mg/l 14.6
Sulphate- mg/l 51.9

[vacant]

Here's a simple answer, before everyone jumps in and we all get over-complicated:

For a Pale Ale with your water, go to your local aquarium centre with some buckets and buy 30 ltr of reverse osmosis water (10p/ltr?). Assuming you need around 34 ltr in total to result in your 23 ltr brew length, add 4 ltr of your tap water. i.e. 80-90% RO, the rest tap water.

You won't even need a campden tablet.

When I started thinking about water treatment, I used 100% RO and built up the water profile with salts. Now I use 10% tap and 90% RO for pale beers with my hard water.

[BenB]

6.1 in DKH is 109ppm CaCO3 alkalinity. Citra beer should be hop forward. Calcium is quite low.

Minimum would be

1) Campden tablet to drive off chlorine / chloramine
2) Increase the Calcium (0.4g/L of DLS would get it to about 120ppm Calcium and make it fairly sulfate heavy for hop character)

Alkalinity of 109 would be okay for a pale ale I would reckon. That's my thoughts anyway.

[orlando]

First question is where did you get your water report from?

Assuming your Salifert kit was bought for finding out the Alkalinity of your water that result gives your Alkalinity as 108.18, which is listed as Calcium Carbonate in your report so the good news is your kit is very accurate and you know how to use it. The other good news is your water isn't really hard or really soft, lucky you. If you look up Alkalinity Conversion Chart on Google you are in for a lovely surprise.

Alkalinity is the enemy not hard water, if you wish to make a really good Stout you have an alkalinity level that is not a bad starting point. Now the not so good news, unless you are American , the rest of your minerals are a little low, particularly calcium, which would be better around the 150-220 mark. Your sulphate chloride ratio favours making Bitters Pale Ales but your alkalinity is too high for that, you need to get that closer to 20-30 ppm.

But we are getting a little too far ahead really. Having a basic understanding of why water treatment is a useful tool makes more sense than wading straight in, have a read of this, if you haven't already done so. It should give you a good grounding, we can then discuss whether or not you should start using stuff like CRS or move straight to using acids for your adjustment.

[orlando]

Alkalinity of 109 would be okay for a pale ale I would reckon. That's my thoughts anyway.

Nope, good for a Porter or Stout, as the more acidic malts in these will naturally lower alkalinity, the opposite is true in the grist for a Pale Ale, they don't have the natural acidity to lower alkalinity so they need the help of CRS or hard acid.

[Jocky]

Your salifert kit result converts to about 108ppm. Here's my favourite online converter http://saltyzoo.com/saltycalcs/alkconv.php

So the question here is - what are you trying to change in your beer?

The real basics are:
- Removing chloramines with a campden tablet
- Getting mash pH right by carbonate reduction.

Beyond that you could adjust the ions, particularly sulphate/chloride... but you might want to revisit that one later.

Honestly I think that only the first item is essential for you (actually even that may not be essential depending upon your local water, but I'd say better safe than sorry). 108ppm alkalinity is not a lot, particularly for dark beers, so you might just want to just measure your mash pH without any treatment, and then adjust from there.

If you want to dive in then personally I'd:
1. Use half a campden tablet, crushed in the water before use.
2. Then I'd get some CRS/AMS and add about 0.4ml per litre of liquor for pale beers (0.4ml/l will reduce alkalinity by about 72ppm), and nothing for dark beers.
3. Measure your mash pH and then adjust the acid addition up or down for the next time.

[BenB]

Alkalinity of 109 would be okay for a pale ale I would reckon. That's my thoughts anyway.

Nope, good for a Porter or Stout, as the more acidic malts in these will naturally lower alkalinity, the opposite is true in the grist for a Pale Ale, they don't have the natural acidity to lower alkalinity so they need the help of CRS or hard acid.

Sorry- yes, not sure what I was thinking there! Brain fade as usual. If only the alkalinity and calcium levels were swapped You can tell I'm used to the "foolproof" CRS/DLS instructions!

[Sadfield]

Not getting great results form the brews I've done so far with my BM and unsure if it's the recipe packs I'm buying or the water.

What isn't great about them? I know this can be difficult put a finger on, sometimes, but the issue could be elsewhere.

Assuming that the issue is water, and even if it isn't treatment won't hurt. Wouldn't the simplest action be to use a Campden tablet and a 5-10g addition of gypsum? as at the very least it will move things in the right direction with limited input. Chris172 would then be able to evaluate the result after one brew.

[chris172]

Thanks for all your input.

Got my water report from Anglian Water online... My LHBS said a few years ago I had good water, so it's good to get it confirmed.

However my last 2 brews have been so harsh... thats what it feels like at the back of my throat, and it feels like it makes it swell!!! One a Porter and the other a Golden Citrus. I use a BM and have done a full mash with the Porter and a sparged mash with the other.

Got the Sitra planned for tomorrow and getting very despondent that I might just pack it in.

I was using a 3v system for about 4 years and the beer was quite good but the last 12 months with the BM the 10 brews I've done with it have been awful.

Getting desperate to make the investment pay off but even straight tap water should give reasonable results.

[Sadfield]

Harsh? Could this be increased bitterness and a hop utilization issue? I would assume the 3V and BM both used the same water source?

[chris172]

I'm saying harsh as opposed to astringent as the effect is at the back of the throat rather and feels really dry than mouth puckering .. like sucking a lemon.

This has only been for the last 2 brews but the others weren't good but in differing ways.

Have only used 'ready designed kits' with it from a main UK supplier so could be the grain crush?? although they are supposed to be BM specific.

[Eric]

I'm saying harsh as opposed to astringent as the effect is at the back of the throat rather and feels really dry than mouth puckering .. like sucking a lemon.

This has only been for the last 2 brews but the others weren't good but in differing ways.

Have only used 'ready designed kits' with it from a main UK supplier so could be the grain crush?? although they are supposed to be BM specific.

No, it's your water. You stand no chance brewing a decent pale beer with a BM and water that alkaline. You could do with more calcium too, but you can sort that later.

25 litres of your water has 2.7g of alkalinity measured as calcium carbonate when 4 or 5kg of pale grains will cope poorly with more than a quarter gram of alkalinity at the given level of calcium.

Did you mash with less liquor in the 3V sysytem? If so, less unwanteds would be released during the mash, although they would be increasingly extracted when sparging.

You need to substantially reduce that alkalinity.

[barneey]

As Eric has mentioned regarding a move from 3V to a BM a slightly different approach will be needed when using a BM due to the different liquor to grist ratios. Consider the buffering effect of a liquor in a BM.

3V system might be 2.5 x ratio liquor to grist
BM system might be 3.5 / 4 / 4.5 x ratio liquor to grist

Most recommended areas for Alkalinity depending on what you are brewing are based on a traditional 3V system not a BM system.

[Sadfield]

Surely the alkalinity shouldn't present a problem in a porter?

[barneey]

Water taken down to 20 CaCO3 (got 17) (Sulphuric Acid used) + A little calcium chloride to bring up the chloride a little, for a better ratio match.

Pale Ale brewed most pale malt + a little crystal, single hop.