Boiling to lower alkalinity

(That's water to the rest of us!) Beer is about 95% water, so if you want to discuss water treatment, filtering etc this is the place to do it!
MattGuk
Piss Artist
Posts: 155
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:56 pm

Re: Boiling to lower alkalinity

Post by MattGuk » Wed Jan 20, 2021 12:41 pm

Post boil I mean

MattGuk
Piss Artist
Posts: 155
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:56 pm

Re: Boiling to lower alkalinity

Post by MattGuk » Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:44 pm

Sorry, just read back through the pages and got my answer.
So I would just minus 40% off my original Calcium content to achieve the new calcium content after boiling?

User avatar
Eric
Even further under the Table
Posts: 2873
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:18 am
Location: Sunderland.

Re: Boiling to lower alkalinity

Post by Eric » Wed Jan 20, 2021 3:13 pm

MattGuk wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:44 pm
Sorry, just read back through the pages and got my answer.
So I would just minus 40% off my original Calcium content to achieve the new calcium content after boiling?
Yes, if the original calcium content was known. When boiling, any reduction in alkalinity will of that bonded to calcium. After boiling the magnesium carbonate so formed remains soluble in water, while calcium carbonate is mostly not. As calcium is 40% of the weight of calcium carbonate, the reduction in calcium content will be 40%.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

Silver_Is_Money
Piss Artist
Posts: 232
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:35 pm
Location: N/E Ohio, USA
Contact:

Re: Boiling to lower alkalinity

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:41 pm

MattGuk wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 12:22 pm
Silver_Is_Money wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 5:23 am
I concur with calcium = ~89.2 mg/L.

That places post boil Alkalinity at about 65 mg/L, and post boil calcium at about 54.4 mg/L.
Sorry if I sound ignorant or stupid, possibly both, but can I ask how my calcium content was figures out here?
Your nominal Total Hardness was recorded as 244 mg/L
Your nominal Magnesium was recorded as 5.1 mg/L

Hardness is the measure of combined MgCO3 (Magnesium Carbonate), and CaCO3 (Calcium Carbonate). But they are conflated into CaCO3 only, and reported as such (I.E., Total Hardness as CaCO3).

The molecular weight of CaCO3 is 100.0869
The molecular weight of the Ca++ ion is 40.078
The molecular weight of the Mg++ ion is 24.305

Therefore, the Ca++ ion percent of CaCO3 by weight is 40.078/100.0869 = 0.400432, and the inverse of this is 2.4973
And likewise the Mg++ ion percent of CaCO3 by weight is 24.305/100.0869 = 0.242839, and the inverse of this is 4.11796

So:
Total Hardness as CaCO3 = 2.4973(Ca++) + 4.11796(Mg++)

And we know that for your water this means:
244 = 2.4973(Ca++) + 4.11796(5.1)

Rearranging and solving:
2.4973(Ca++) = 244 - 4.11796(5.1)
2.4973(Ca++) = 222.9984
Ca++ = 222.9984/2.4973
Ca++ = 89.2958 mg/L (nominally, based upon your analytical "means")
Developer of 'Mash Made Easy', a free and complete mash pH adjustment assistant spreadsheet

https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/

MattGuk
Piss Artist
Posts: 155
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:56 pm

Re: Boiling to lower alkalinity

Post by MattGuk » Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:08 pm

I'm getting everything sorted to brew a bitter tomorrow, I'm not going down the boil route for this one, just going CRS for the treatment.
I have just done my water tests and I have an Alkalinity of 159.3ppm, however my Calcium says I have about 125ppm.
Now I know it was said previously in the thread that, that is unusually high, but it it possible, based on water report I gave?
I haven't got a tds meter yet, however my Alkalinity hardly changes and neither does my Calcium.
Can it be possible that my Calcium is actually that high?

User avatar
Eric
Even further under the Table
Posts: 2873
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:18 am
Location: Sunderland.

Re: Boiling to lower alkalinity

Post by Eric » Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:43 pm

Possible? Yes. Probable? No.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

Silver_Is_Money
Piss Artist
Posts: 232
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:35 pm
Location: N/E Ohio, USA
Contact:

Re: Boiling to lower alkalinity

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:47 pm

Do you have a total hardness test kit?
Developer of 'Mash Made Easy', a free and complete mash pH adjustment assistant spreadsheet

https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/

MattGuk
Piss Artist
Posts: 155
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:56 pm

Re: Boiling to lower alkalinity

Post by MattGuk » Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:50 pm

Well I Dont know lol, I'm Salifert kit say hardness/Alkalinity test

MattGuk
Piss Artist
Posts: 155
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:56 pm

Re: Boiling to lower alkalinity

Post by MattGuk » Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:51 pm

Just as a side note, I boiled some water and retested my Calcium level and it dropped to 82ppm

guypettigrew
Even further under the Table
Posts: 2626
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:10 pm
Location: Christchurch, Dorset

Re: Boiling to lower alkalinity

Post by guypettigrew » Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:26 pm

The only way to sort this is to get Wallybrew to test your water. You haven't done this yet, have you? Can't see it in your earlier posts.

Calcium of 125ppm in raw water is possible. Mine is 100. Your figure of 125 seems unlikely, though, if your alkalinity is reading 159.3. How did you get such an exact number, btw? The Salifert kit can't do that. You'd have to have found the change point at a reading of just over 0.42 on the syringe, and the kit isn't that accurate. Plus the drop in alkalinity isn't linear. Eric can explain, it's a bit beyond me!

As an observation: if you drop your calcium to significantly <100 then you could have problems getting the right mash pH.

Guy

MattGuk
Piss Artist
Posts: 155
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:56 pm

Re: Boiling to lower alkalinity

Post by MattGuk » Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:54 pm

Well I just multiplied the value on the chart by 17.9 which gave me that reading.
I was thinking of having my water tested, however would I not be wrong in thinking that the test is from just a point in time?
Don't get me wrong, I know I would get a better understanding of my waters mineral content, but surely that is susceptible to change?
I am actually thinking of getting 2 more Salifert Calcium kits and comparing all 3.

Silver_Is_Money
Piss Artist
Posts: 232
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:35 pm
Location: N/E Ohio, USA
Contact:

Re: Boiling to lower alkalinity

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:57 pm

MattGuk wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:50 pm
Well I Dont know lol, I'm Salifert kit say hardness/Alkalinity test
Does it have two solutions or one? If two, then one is for Alkalinity, and the other is for hardness. It may even say GH and KH. GH is hardness and KH is Alkalinity.
Developer of 'Mash Made Easy', a free and complete mash pH adjustment assistant spreadsheet

https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/

MattGuk
Piss Artist
Posts: 155
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:56 pm

Re: Boiling to lower alkalinity

Post by MattGuk » Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:13 am

Silver_Is_Money wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:57 pm
MattGuk wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:50 pm
Well I Dont know lol, I'm Salifert kit say hardness/Alkalinity test
Does it have two solutions or one? If two, then one is for Alkalinity, and the other is for hardness. It may even say GH and KH. GH is hardness and KH is Alkalinity.
Mine just says KH/ ALK, so I'm guessing it's just for Alkalinity? This water stuff is way beyond me, don't get me wrong, I have some understanding and my beers are turning out way better since I started looking more into water chemistry, however I am now questioning the Validity of some of the test kits.
Maybe I should just focus on hitting my p.h and that will almost do.

Silver_Is_Money
Piss Artist
Posts: 232
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:35 pm
Location: N/E Ohio, USA
Contact:

Re: Boiling to lower alkalinity

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:39 am

Agree, it's just Alkalinity.
Developer of 'Mash Made Easy', a free and complete mash pH adjustment assistant spreadsheet

https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/

guypettigrew
Even further under the Table
Posts: 2626
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:10 pm
Location: Christchurch, Dorset

Re: Boiling to lower alkalinity

Post by guypettigrew » Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:52 am

MattGuk wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:54 pm
Well I just multiplied the value on the chart by 17.9 which gave me that reading.
I was thinking of having my water tested, however would I not be wrong in thinking that the test is from just a point in time?
Don't get me wrong, I know I would get a better understanding of my waters mineral content, but surely that is susceptible to change?
I am actually thinking of getting 2 more Salifert Calcium kits and comparing all 3.
Ah, understand the 159.3 now. I'm a bit more of a pedant, and use the figure of 17.85 as the multiplier. Not that I have OCD or anything!!

Yes, Wallybrew's water test is just a point in time, but it's an excellent place to start. Which reminds me, I must send some water off for testing. Once a year seems about right. Can't remember how much he charges, but I think it's about as much as a couple of Salifert Calcium test kits.

I test the alkalinity of my tap water every brew now. WB reported it as 203 in the last test a year ago. If I find it's different then I alter the other figures accordingly before entering them into GW's water calculator. For example, if the alkalinity of the raw water was 180, then I'd reduce the values for everything else by 20%. I think that's what you're meant to do, but happy to be corrected.

Guy

Post Reply