"Total Hardness"?

(That's water to the rest of us!) Beer is about 95% water, so if you want to discuss water treatment, filtering etc this is the place to do it!
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Eric
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Re: "Total Hardness"?

Post by Eric » Sat May 13, 2023 11:16 am

Never mind the pretty picture and the bonnie colours, what about the title? Could it be wrong?

To quote from your earlier link.
Carbonate (CO3) and bicarbonate (HCO3) are virtually the same thing excepting for an important factor...their electrical charge. Carbonate has a -2 charge while bicarbonate has a -1 charge due to the extra hydrogen proton it contains. When we deal with brewing water chemistry, we are actually working with ‘equivalents’ which is equal to the weight of the molecule divided by its electrical charge. The molecular weight of carbonate is 60 grams and bicarbonate is 61 grams. Dividing by their electrical charge results in 30 grams per equivalent for carbonate and 61 grams per equivalent for bicarbonate. So you can see that there is almost a 2 to 1 difference in their equivalents. Big difference!
I think that might be off-putting to anyone setting out into this minefield and particularly any already in it with hope of reaching the other side. I don't wish to make this more confusing and while if you want to do the chemistry in detail, t is easier to work with equivalents, but they are not an immediate essential for getting mash pH in the right region.

So with those with interest, we will here and now examine that "Big difference!" The last words of the above.

Carbonate has a -2 charge, yes. Bicarbonate has a -1 charge, yes.
But as Calcium and magnesium each have a +2 charge, only one molecule of carbonate is required for a bond while 2 molecules of bicarbonate are required for that bond.

So calcium carbonate + acid -> calcium salt + carbon dioxide + water
i.e. CaCO3 +H2SO4 -> CaSO4 + CO2 + H2O

and Calcium Bicarbonate + acid -> Calcium salt + carbon dioxide and water
i.e. Ca(HCO3)2 +H2SO4 -> CaSO4 + 2CO2 + 2H2O

The only difference is the extra molecule of water and extra molecule of carbon dioxide started with. The amount of acid required is the same and alkalinity is the same, the treatment is the same, so for you, the brewer, there is no difference.
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Re: "Total Hardness"?

Post by PeeBee » Sat May 13, 2023 2:09 pm

... Whhheeeeee, pretty, pretty ... eh ... oh ... okay I'll snap out of it.

The title ... "It's time to review your pension plan". Eh? Ah, wrong sheet ... "Map showing the hardness in mg/l as Calcium Carbonate in England and Wales". Okay and you write ... hang-on, I didn't write that! Ah you're saying from a link that I did use ... this stuff is written by that "Martin Brungard".

... Blah, blah, blah .... yeah, I'd noticed things weren't adding up, thanks for explaining that. But what happens if the CO2 (loads of H2O) runs out? Nah, I'm sures there's reasons ... Soooo, you are defending the use of imitation "as CaCO3" against my suggested preference of real bicarbonate? But I never argue that the "as CaCO3" is wrong, only that it can be very confusing for most untrained eyes and causes silly mistakes.

Mmm ... that piccie (map) doesn't differentiate 'tween temporary hardness (alkalinity more or less) and permanent hardness. Still, I've already dismissed trying to gain anything detailed from "hardness". So I'll let that be.

Can I go back to the pretty picture now?
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: "Total Hardness"?

Post by Mashman » Mon May 15, 2023 7:52 am

Eric wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 10:56 pm


Yes, it would be nice if others would join this discussion.
If I understood any of this I would love to join in
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Re: "Total Hardness"?

Post by guypettigrew » Mon May 15, 2023 1:31 pm

It's a wonderful thread to read. So much info. But, as an amateur home brewer, I think all I need to know is how to reduce my alkalinity and which salts to add on brewday--Graham's calculator helps with this.

But please keep going, PeeBee and Eric.

It's a joy to read your discussion.

Guy

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Re: "Total Hardness"?

Post by PeeBee » Mon May 15, 2023 4:07 pm

Mashman wrote:
Mon May 15, 2023 7:52 am
Eric wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 10:56 pm
Yes, it would be nice if others would join this discussion.
If I understood any of this I would love to join in
Nnnooooooo! ... You're just the sort who's support I need! I'm having to do the egg-head stuff to backup my reasoning, but I'm trying to simplify the subject as much as possible so anyone can do it (including me when all this stuff drifts out me head in ... tick, tick, tick ... what was it drifting out me 'ead again?).

Just join in expressing why'd (and how) you want me to succeed in this debate.

I've a sneaking suspicion Eric is only playing "devil's advocate" (or just plain devil?) to keep me on my toes? He probably knows I'm out my comfort zone (I only have "real" experience of brewing with soft water), and can probably smell the blood. :twisted:

Water is currently getting way too much attention these days, to the point where some people seem to think it's the most important aspect for getting right to be successful at home-brewing. The balance needs straightening out so we can spend more time addressing the brewing subjects that really matter.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: "Total Hardness"?

Post by PeeBee » Mon May 15, 2023 4:57 pm

guypettigrew wrote:
Mon May 15, 2023 1:31 pm
It's a wonderful thread to read. So much info. But, as an amateur home brewer, I think all I need to know is how to reduce my alkalinity and which salts to add on brewday--Graham's calculator helps with this.

But please keep going, PeeBee and Eric.

It's a joy to read your discussion.

Guy
:thumbsup:

Yeah, shame we haven't got Graham about; he really knew how to beat me down! :bonk

I do have an issue with Graham's calculator. It works using "carbonate". Nothing wrong with that from the calculator point of view, but people take it literally and start adding powdered limestone or chalk to the water thinking it will dissolve (it won't!). I think I remember Graham's notes for the calculator instructing adding any "chalk" to the mash, buy how many people read this? And more recent info I've seen states the acids present in the malt haven't enough punch to dissolve chalk in the mash either.

I (like many others ... Martin Brungard, of Bru'n Water fame, is one) am in the "bicarbonate" (baking soda) camp. When bicarbonate starts appearing to be ineffective (don't know why it does that, but I'm talking changes in a calculator, I'd never attempt "live" pH adjustments) I switch to using Slaked Lime ... but that's getting complicated and I'm trying to avoid that! Not an issue for 90%+ of the population who have "hard" water and would never be adding chalk to their mash anyway.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: "Total Hardness"?

Post by killer » Mon May 15, 2023 10:40 pm

Peebee,

There isn’t a “right” answer to all this, just personal preference. Hardness, as CaCO3, makes sense when talking about soap. Magnesium and Calcium (and other 2+ cations) have the same effect as each other as they bind to the negative charged part of detergents, making a sort of scum and stopping lathering - no good if you’re cleaning up. More hardness = more soap. It’s a historical thing, used to quantify waters ability or resistance to make lather in a simplified way – no need to distinguish the individual contributing components. A one size fits all figure - it’s a lot less useful for brewers. Believe it or not coffee shops also use hardness when creating water for espresso. And Magnesium and Calcium do not have the same effect on flavour extraction – so they are also behind the times.

Unfortunately hardness, and the much more useful alkalinity have ended up with the same unit, and if it’s any reassurance, hundreds of professional brewers the world over are confusing the two every day.

I agree that in many ways Bicarbonate (HCO3) is a better unit to use than CaCO3 when talking about alkalinity. But most reports give the value as CaCO3, or worse German degrees (17.8 mg/ German degree). The French are more reasonable with 1 French degree being 10 mg CaCO3. As long as you don’t confuse the terms (which is seductively easy to do when reading a water report) there shouldn’t be any problem. It’s also useful to remember that Hardness is just talking about the metal part of CaCO3, and alkalinity is the Carbonate/ Bicarbonate part that buffers the pH of a solution. I’m happy enough that it behaves the way it does because it’s the same system that keeps your blood at the right pH. However, even if you use Bicarbonate as your preferred alkalinity unit, 1 molar sulfuric acid will not have the same effect as the same volume of 1 molar hydrochloric acid, and so you will again need to invoke equivalents (or normality) to save the day.

If you want to treat pH on the go – during mashing (and I know some don’t approve of this), I find a useful trick is to just add enough acid to remove 10 ppm alkalinity (calculated using whichever calculator) for your mash volume, mix, and then take the pH again. You shouldn’t overshoot your pH target.

I don’t agree that water is given too much importance these days. You are fortunate enough to have soft water so that any light beer should be clean at the very least, and even very good with a few salts added. Yeast choice, recipe and oxidation are obviously very important parameters for brewing, but varying any of these would not save any of the professionally brewed beers with water at 300 - 400 ppm alkalinity that I have tasted. Its importance should not be underestimated. Equally important is that the small amount of (let’s say lactic) acid that you might use to correct the pH of a beer will have almost no influence on its flavour. Whereas 300ppm alkalinity treated with lactic acid will be undrinkable for all but the most Belgian of beers.

Slaked lime is fine for your water, as it’s just going to raise alkalinity as here’s nothing else in there. If you added it to water with 150 ppm alkalinity, to raise it to 250 ppm alkalinity to brew a Russian Imperial Stout, it would actually lower the alkalinity significantly. Intriguingly, by how much would depend on the pH of your tapwater

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Re: "Total Hardness"?

Post by PeeBee » Tue May 16, 2023 9:20 am

Thanks Killer. I think you've summed up there why I think "Hardness" should be assigned to the bin. Saves me going over it! With a rough idea of the Hardness brewers (can optionally) get a quick snapshot of the water they are dealing with and from then on can forget anything else to do with details of hardness.

My campaign is to treat "Alkalinity", and all this "equivalence" nonsense ("as CaCO3", etc.), with the same distain. You touched on bicarbonate being one of those "equivalences", a fact I've been trying to avoid, but at least "as HCO3+" can be treated as "is HCO3+" without much impact on proceedings, whereas brewers are treating "as CaCO3" as "is CaCO3" and doing all sorts of daft things.

What I want is brewers (and me!) to at least know simple basics for messing with their water and not immediately trying to get a precise knowledge across a much wider field, getting most of it wrong (un-beknown to them) and think it's the only thing saving them from making rubbish beer. And I'm doing it because the same babbling of misinformation caused me to make a stupid mistake (what I opened this thread with) though fortunately the mistake had no bearing on my beer.

Water is given too much importance when the tools being wielded by the brewer to "fix" the water is a tangle of useless misinformation. I'm well aware my experience is with soft water, and I do need to be careful what I say that might not work for those with harder water. But by the same token, those with hard water should be way more careful when advising soft water users.


(Slaked Lime? I think you covered what I meant saying "but that's getting complicated...". Hopefully with what you've written, many tempted to mess with it will stay well clear for now!).
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: "Total Hardness"?

Post by killer » Wed May 17, 2023 9:58 am

I think that hardness is at best meaningless when you have a full water report, and at worst can cause the wrong addition of acids and salts.

Alkalinity in my opinion shouldn’t be treated with disdain because it, unlike the pH of my tapwater, is a meaningful quantity. I know that if I brew my American Pale Ale, and I have an alkalinity of 10 ppm, with 120 ppm Calcium (and 150 ppm Chloride, 75 ppm Sulphate for flavour), my mash pH will be 5.4. That is true whether my tap water alkalinity started at 180 ppm (and I dropped it to 10) or whether it started at 280 ppm and dropped it to 10. At either 180 or 280 ppm alkalinity the pH is 7.8 so that’s no help. The equivalence nonsense is just an unfortunate reality – my water provider gives alkalinity (and Hardness !) in French degrees but also CaCO3 so I can’t use Bicarbonate. But the conversion is simple enough – multiplying CaCO3 by about 1.22 will give you Bicarbonate. The fact that I can test it using a Salifert Kit 100 times for about 10 quid is highly reassuring as my water provider’s reports are often far from reality.

I think Eric has been helping people for years with coming to grips with the basics of liquor chemistry and how to treat their specific water. His patience is nothing short of saintly. I have my own simplified (excel) calculator which just calculates acid and salt additions to hit a desired profile.

Interestingly the same water treatment rules apply whether you brew on a 20L or 5000 L scale, so many of these same tools are used by professional breweries. Given that every modern micro wants to brew about 50 different types of beer the calculators tend to become overly complicated. And as you said, what works well in one brewery may not work well in another so misinformation spreads rapidly.

Slaked lime in some circumstances can be very useful – and for whatever reason, it is considered as an organic ingredient here in France. Lactic and citric acids are the only organic acids here, but you couldn’t use them for a hoppy modern beer where alkalinity was in excess of say 200 ppm. Slaked lime has no influence on flavour but can easily reduce 350 ppm alkalinity to 30 by precipitating the Bicarbonate as Chalk. German breweries use it all the time. I think it can be used as an “auxiliary or adjunct” and so “repects” the Reinheitsgebot.

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Re: "Total Hardness"?

Post by PeeBee » Wed May 17, 2023 4:00 pm

killer wrote:
Wed May 17, 2023 9:58 am
I think that hardness is at best meaningless when you have a full water report, and at worst can cause the wrong addition of acids and salts. ...
That's what I like: Confirmation that I might be towing the right line!
killer wrote:
Wed May 17, 2023 9:58 am
...
Alkalinity in my opinion shouldn’t be treated with disdain because it, unlike the pH of my tapwater, is a meaningful quantity. I know that if I brew my American Pale Ale, and I have an alkalinity of 10 ppm, with 120 ppm Calcium (and 150 ppm Chloride, 75 ppm Sulphate for flavour), my mash pH will be 5.4. That is true whether my tap water alkalinity started at 180 ppm (and I dropped it to 10) or whether it started at 280 ppm and dropped it to 10. At either 180 or 280 ppm alkalinity the pH is 7.8 so that’s no help. The equivalence nonsense is just an unfortunate reality – my water provider gives alkalinity (and Hardness !) in French degrees but also CaCO3 so I can’t use Bicarbonate. But the conversion is simple enough – multiplying CaCO3 by about 1.22 will give you Bicarbonate. The fact that I can test it using a Salifert Kit 100 times for about 10 quid is highly reassuring as my water provider’s reports are often far from reality. ...
"Disdain" was a bit over-the-top ... I was struggling for a better word.

I'm actually quite a supporter of "Alkalinity" as it's so important for predicting mash pH. And I'm a strong believer in not chasing an "ideal" pH by making additions to a "live" mash. So, the two are complimentary. But "Alkalinity" is a complex subject of which we (as homebrewers) only need a fraction of the subject's scope. And I know many homebrewers struggle with "Alkalinity", as do I! As the most relevant bit of "Alkalinity" to homebrewing involves Bicarbonate, I'm a proponent of only following the bicarbonate levels in the water and ignoring all the gumph about "Alkalinity". And (the bit in my recommendations you don't seem to have taken into account?) use a decent water calculator (available to download or to use online) to provide useful bits like pH prediction, acid dosing, etc. The sort of stuff that should be using "Alkalinity" under-the-hood, so I don't have to!

There are disadvantages to this "calculator" approach: The calculator may cost money! It requires a computer (unavailable due to nuclear holocaust, or perhaps a more mundane reason?). The calculator must support "bicarbonate" or you're left making similar mistakes to before (or needing the skills to "adapt" the results). Brewers with extreme (UK legal limits for tap) water supplies (pH 8-and-a-bit to 9.0) may need a bit of pre-treatment (dilution, acid additions, etc.), and: I'm not going to make recommendations for calculators even though some are worse than useless, but do suggest finding one that works for the user (in respect of pH predictions ... I'm using Bru'n Water BTW and have in the past used "Mash-Made-Easy" but not for a couple of years).

Ignoring Hardness and Alkalinity automatically negates the need to understand "as CaCO3", "Equivalence", "moles", and so-forth.


killer wrote:
Wed May 17, 2023 9:58 am
...
I think Eric has been helping people for years with coming to grips with the basics of liquor chemistry and how to treat their specific water. His patience is nothing short of saintly. ...
Humm ... you refer to him as "saintly", I've been referring to him as inclined to "devilry". I'll ask him when he gets back which he prefers.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: "Total Hardness"?

Post by PeeBee » Sun May 21, 2023 10:37 am

Why am I on this "crusade" to debunk a lot of what's being said about water?

This post is entirely philosophical; absent of egghead conversation.

Quite a few people who see this thread will be thinking "another of those egghead water argument that go way over my head". But that's not where I'm coming from. I'm looking to slim down what a brewer needs to know about water and assign these egghead arguments to the bin (as far as homebrewing is concerned). I was coming to terms with what I needed from water two or three years ago. I didn't really need to know much. When I started this thread less than two months ago I'd uncovered a flaw in what I was doing. In exorcising that flaw I discovered a lot more about "water", which underlined I really needed to know a lot less!

People seemed so sure they needed to know loads about water or else make naff beer. Some of the subjects they must know are flippin' complicated too. In trying to get to grips with these weird essentials many get the wrong-end-of-the-stick. In these days of rapid information transfer, "social media", etc. these distorted ideas get spread about. In a short space of time "water" is trumpeted about as the most important ingredient in beer.

Complete and utter boll****!

Reporting the compositions in water "as CaCO3" (and a whole host of other "representative" substances). What does this tell people? Gawd knows what it tells some people, but it's obvious they get it severely wrong! The real irony is that "carbonate" (e.g CaCO3") barely exists, or more often totally absent, in tap water. And what's it used for? Reporting "Hardness" for one. And why do we, as beer brewers, need "Hardness": We don't! There might be a bit of Hardness that's handy? "Temporary Hardness", which is covered much better by "Alkalinity", which I'm coming to. So, we don't need "Hardness" unless we enjoy our heads being messed with. So, forget "Hardness"!

"Alkalinity" is a big subject, of which we (as homebrewers) apply a small sliver. It's also often reported as "CaCO3". It probably does have a useful role to play for homebrewers. But like a lot to do with water there is loads to spend hours-and hours on (more like years-and-years) but the amount useful to brewing beer is a brief summary of that information. Fortunately, some homebrewing eggheads have compressed the knowledge of "Water" into calculators, which are available free or very low cost (okay, some will rip you off!). Result! We can forget all the "Alkalinity" stuff too ... just work with a decent calculator.

NO "as CaCO3". NO water hardness. NO "Alkalinity". The only thing easier is do nothing at all (eh? ... Nah!). The discussions about water chemistry are entirely left to eggheads.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: "Total Hardness"?

Post by Eric » Sun May 21, 2023 7:03 pm

Very philosophical PeeBee, but if I may plagiarize Hamlet's words to a great friend and supporter, "There are more things in Heaven and Earth, PeeBee, than are dreamt of in your philosophy". Of course, you are right, there are many things a brewer doesn't need to know about water to be able to brew good beer. However, with the plethora of opinions and modern communication, inevitably there exists at the tap of a finger much that doesn't apply to that reader or is simply incorrect. The dilemma is, how to determine the right course without learning more than should be necessary.

Being described as devilish I accept, as at times thinking that way to highlight a point. Saintly as a description of my patience, Hopefully I'll bring that to mind when in difficulty finding the right answer and words to help. My hope is to help others as I was helped here and other sources.

Went away last week and on our first morning my wife reported difficulty getting the soap out of her hair and from her skin. I told her the water was soft while at home it was hard. Afterwards she used less shampoo and soap, and rinsed more. A true happening.

There also was a small brewery, with a bar attached and some 5 or 6 beers on offer. Some had "hazy and unfined" on their pump clips and others not so marked, but even those did not pull as what I would call bright. I asked the young barman what hops were used, but he didn't know as he had just started. Later another arrived to confessed being one of two brewers, but couldn't remember what hops were in a beer I wished to order. The pump clip was marked Styrian hops after the name together with 3.6% ABV, which is at the lower limit for a pale beer to be thrilling, but it was watery, maybe muddy could be added to that, and whatever Styrian hops they might have been, they were indistinct. There's a knack to treating water, soft or hard, and we in Britain have waters that can be treated, particularly when compared with many other Nations.

After Napoleon was defeated, Britain had a large Navy, so pensionable personnel were sent to explore the globe and make a return on their cost. One project was a Northwest Passage, the best known were by Franklin, who commanded expeditions by both land and sea. On land they would test water to find salt water to chart the extent of the ocean and once found water so hard, it wouldn't make tea. (These expedition accounts can be found on Gutenberg.) Today we know that land as a part of Canada, the western limitation we know as Alaska, then a colony of Russia defended with Russian small arms and beyond the limit of Franklins remit.

Today we get much information on liquor treatment from USA where commercial beers are produced differently to most of Europe's, including Britain. Understanding of treating ones own brewing liquor doesn't necessarily translate to other waters. Imagine advice from a brewer living in a municipality with a domestic water supply softened by ion exchange. Potentially 95% of the mineral content of such a supply will be sodium chloride, sodium sulphate and sodium bicarbonate. We might struggle to understand alkalinity in terms of calcium carbonate, but someone in that situation might choose bicarbonate and advise others do the same, and succeed.

After the American Civil War there was rush to open The West, with plans to open six new railroads. A wise brewer in St Louis, where barley was expensive but corn and rice were grown locally and used as cheap partial substitutes, had a plan to put ice cold beer onto those trains. The plan was a great success and rarely did the number of major US brewers exceed 40, with much ale supplied in Northeastern States imported from Britain. During the period of prohibition, St Louis' refrigeration system was turned to ice cream production. Another brewery in Milwaukee survived producing cheese although I have also read it produced yeast for bakers.
After prohibition, those two would compete, each claiming to make the clearer beer, I remember such adverts in postwar years of Reader's Digests. Funny? Or maybe just me to say clarity was then a priority. The King of beers' claim was longer maturation, that which made Milwaukee famous went into decline when it was said their finings included plastic or some similar substance. Live beer and isinglass might yet catch on. :D

Just asked my wife her thoughts on soft water. She didn't like it, even when using less soap because she didn't feel as clean as after washing in our hard water.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

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Re: "Total Hardness"?

Post by PeeBee » Mon May 22, 2023 6:18 pm

Welcome back Eric! As you can see, I've been keeping the thread going (but not overheating ... am I losing my touch?).

Crikey, that post of yours is going to need some digesting. Meanwhile ...
Eric wrote:
Sun May 21, 2023 7:03 pm
... Being described as devilish I accept, as at times thinking that way to highlight a point. Saintly as a description of my patience, ...
Ha! I'm often described as "trying the patience of a saint". However, I have a wager on being successful at trying to break the patience of an Eric.

(And I haven't finished with this thread yet!).
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: "Total Hardness"?

Post by PeeBee » Sun May 28, 2023 11:37 am

PeeBee wrote:
Mon May 22, 2023 6:18 pm
... (And I haven't finished with this thread yet!).
Where-upon I did seem to finish with the thread! Really just moved it to this thread: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=84115&sid=e0da6a0ac ... ed6cdbca25

But I'm still working on it. Trying to encompass a wider range of scenarios. That "other" thread (linked above) was trying the approach in a more "hard water" area (combined with a desperately inadequate information providing water company). Looking at substituting "CaCO3" (bogus "equivalent" compound) and other carbonate sources (real compounds ... Graham Wheeler includes loads of them with his calculator) with "bicarbonate" sources to gain a wider acceptance of the approach.

I prefer a "bicarbonate" to a "carbonate" approach because although even if the "bicarbonate" amounts are "equivalents", it's quite transparent as to whether an " equivalent" or a "real" substance is being used. Whereas "CaCO3" is almost guaranteed to be an "equivalent", yet what homebrewers get up to with "real" CaCO3 (chalk) is a good indication of the confusion "CaCO3" "equivalence" causes*.

"Bicarbonate" might possibly be more restrictive for dealing with water, but for dealing with water for use in homebrewing from potable water supplies using "bicarbonate" is more than adequate.

But the only calculators I know work with "bicarbonate" is "Bru'n Water" and "Mash-Made-Easy".


The "Approach", should anyone need reminding, is to remove all the "mumbo-jumbo" linked with brewing water treatment: Only six "ions" (chemical components) to follow. No concern about "Hardness" (outside of just casual conversation) and the same goes for "Alkalinity" although that subject is delegated to a decent calculator (and some are free!) and knowledge of a value for the water's "Alkalinity" (the published value in whatever units). No-one should be unsure of their water's capacity to make beer but are free to argue about the value that information gives!

*Real CaCO3 (chalk) can be dissolved in water using CO2 under pressure and also in the mash (debatable) (action of Phylate Acid?). But in both cases, this is creating calcium bicarbonate (Ca(HCO3)2); in solution, the solid form can't exist.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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PeeBee
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Re: "Total Hardness"?

Post by PeeBee » Sun Jun 25, 2023 2:40 pm

I moved away with this "project" (to THBF) and developed this small spreadsheet to attempt to instill some simplicity on a seemingly toxic subject that appears to be unstoppingly disappearing up its own backside? The spreadsheet is in Excel. It might work in Google Sheets but I haven't fully tried it. This is the business end: Just six ions output in "ppm" (= "mg/l") ... absolutely NO "what the hell is 'as CaCO3'" (no water "Hardness" for that matter):
Water Defuddler.jpg
Water Defuddler.jpg (113.04 KiB) Viewed 2131 times
The following is a copy of THBF post:

This link is to a public area on my Google Drive. I suggest it's downloaded. I've not checked it much in Google Sheets, but it may not appear as I intended, and it doesn't appear to honour cell locking so you might overwrite or delete formulas and utterly trash your copy. It was written in the latest "Excel" and Microsoft have freebie readers.

Water Defuddler

Its only purpose is to extract the 6 key water ions from various sources, guiding you the drivel and converting what's left to ppm (mg/l). Including the "Alkalinity" (spelling that word should be the hardest thing about it for homebrewers!). Thus, removing all the arcane "as CaCO3" and "Hardness" babble which must be responsible for 99% of the "difficulties" understanding water analysis for beer brewing (even "advanced" beer brewing)

I'm still testing it. I'm also hoping you will point out any difficulties with it so I can fix them. It should be pretty simple ... do tell me if it isn't.

It's currently loaded with data from my own water supply ... you will obviously be overwriting that stuff. There are no password protections! Remember, it is not a "water calculator". It only attempts to guide you clear of the un-necessary complexities associated with the subject. I wish the writers of water calculators had been doing that!



[EDIT: By default it will load into Google "Sheets". Click: File: Download: Microsoft Excel (.xlsx)]
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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