Excessive lag time with WLP002

[mysterio]

I pitched a 3L starter of WLP002 (English Ale) into 10 US gallons of 1.037 wort 48 hours ago and still getting no activity. The wort and starter got pure O2 through a .5 micron stone & the starter was swirled frequently. The beer is at around 20C. I don't remember having such a long lag with this yeast, although i'm fairly sure the vial was OK because there was yeast accumulating at the bottom of the starter. I've roused the fermenter by stirring a couple of times because I know this yeast likes to flocculate.

Any thoughts? I'm tempted to dump in a packet of Nottingham but it means the final beer is going to be pretty thin, considering the gravity. Give it another 12 hours maybe? Pump some more O2 in?

[mysterio]

Don't have a spare unfortunately, i've roused again so we'll see what happens.

[iowalad]

That is a bit of a puzzle.

Any chance the yeast were shocked by a vast temp change at pitching? saying that I have pitched right from the fridge before and been okay.
Assuming the starter fermented out fairly recently.

With a 3L starter withat that OG I would think you would be finishin up soon rather than starting.

[mysterio]

IL,

I took the vial out of the fridge four or five hours before making the starter (about room temperature), then let the starter do its thing for about 24 hours before pitching (again, about room temp).

I'll be e-mailing white labs with the lot number if I have to pitch some Nottingham.

[iowalad]

I just can't get my head around why it fermented out a 3L starter yet can't get going in your fermenter. If you had duff yeast you would think the starter wouldn't have taken.

[steve_flack]

Was the starter fermented out or was the yeast truly dead (Did you taste it)? Sometimes the vials that arrive in the UK are knackered by heat shock in shipping from the US. If the starter hasn't started then let H&G know and hopefully they'll sort you out.

[mysterio]

The way I understand it is that the starter doesn't actually ferment out the starter in the 24 hours you leave it (especially if you're keeping the yeast in suspension), you're just giving it a chance for cell growth ? There was definately a lot of sediment forming anyway.

Anyway, the yeast seems to have taken hold now, looks like the agitation has done the trick.

[David Edge]

We span a WLP002 in a litre of wort for four days in a mag stirrer and had a three day lag time. Rousing finally got it off to a grudging start. Probably the same batch.

Current brew is an elderflower+challenger golden ale using Nottingham. It's hard to imagine how a liquid yeast might improve it...

[mysterio]

How did the WLP002 beer turn out in the end David?

This is probably the weakest looking fermentation i've ever had, really quite pathetic. If i'd used SO4 I would have been drinking it tonight.

[Jim]

I've used the WLP002 and mine didn't exactly go off like a rocket either, but was certainly quicker than 3 days!

I thought it was a great yeast - I got 4 brews off my vial before the starters from the fridge stopped..er.. starting, and they were all good and dropped bright very quickly.

The only real problem was cleaning off the deposits from the rim of the fermenter and barrel - the stuff goes like concrete when it dries off.

[David Edge]

How did the WLP002 beer turn out in the end David?

It's still in the FV. We shall have to see. It was Treacle Chocolate Stout and it gets bottled so I won't know for a few weeks.

[oblivious]

I also found it took a few days for the starter to take off, could the inactivity be due to the shipping?

[mysterio]

Could be it, I probably didn't give the starter long enough considering the shipping. It's still chugging along very slowly but I don't have much confidence that the beer will be any good, the samples currently have a strong phenolic smell/taste I might just dump the lot.

I emailed White Labs and they've offered me a free tube of yeast.

[delboy]

IL,

I took the vial out of the fridge four or five hours before making the starter (about room temperature), then let the starter do its thing for about 24 hours before pitching (again, about room temp).

I'll be e-mailing white labs with the lot number if I have to pitch some Nottingham.

Mysterio what was the lot number, i've just been delivered a vial of this from H&G i was going to get a starter under way tonight in the hope that i could use it for brewing a london pride clone at the weekend.

I know its very flocculant so i was going to do the starter on the stir plate, i wonder could i drop a big sterile stir bar in the fermenter and having it lightly stirring for at least the first few days of the ferment

[Aleman]

There is an interesting tale on HBD today regarding teh slugish starting and phenolic character of Whitelab yeasts

From: "A.J deLange" <ajdel at cox.net>
Subject: Lagers

Darrel asked about how the rest of us make lagers. This is a timely
question for me with respect to the yeast anyway. My local home brew
supplier finally got caught by the county (he was selling from his
basement and was able to do this for over five years before the Gestapo
got him) which caused him to pack up and move away to start a meadery.
He liked White Labs and while he would get Wyeast for you if you wanted
it he would always have the White Labs in stock. So I used their yeast
for the last 3 years and got some nice beers but there were some
problems with slow starts and, with the Kolsch and Budvar strains, a
funny phenolic plastic taste which takes months to resolve but finally
does leaving a really nice beer. Furthermore, the Oktoberfest strain
starts out OK until it hits 20 - 25% attenuation then slams on the
brakes and crawls. The batch I made in August will be coming out of the
fermenter next week. Again, the eventual result is a very nice beer. So,
you are thinking, he under pitches or under oxygenates. I always
(because of these problems) pitch a 10% starter and that starter is made
with 2 tubes of the yeast. Oxygenation is always to over 20mg/L and is
done in line (i.e. as the wort enters the fermenter).

In my last brewing the starter (London ale) wouldn't start (it was a
couple months past the use-before date) so I ran off to what is now my
Local Home Brew Shop (and that is literally it's name) where I requested
a couple more tubes only to be told that they don't carry White Labs
because people weren't buying it. When I asked why I was told that
customers were complaining of slow starts and off flavors - in
particular phenolic. So he dropped White Labs and sells Wyeast
exclusively. I feel somewhat vindicated because I've been bellyaching
about these problems here for a while now and have aked the obvious
question: "Is anyone else seeing this kind of behavior with White Labs
yeasts?" a couple of times before and gotten no response. So I'm asking
it again.

It is probably worth noting that White Labs yeasts don't seem to want to
start unless they are in warm conditions and the instructions on the
package indicate that one should start them at high (room) temperatures
and keep them there until the ferement is under way. I don't do this
because I don't want the nasty things that yeast produce at higher
temperatures in my lagers but I do start them at temperatures much
higher (55 - 60) than I would like to start a lager at. This may be
where the funny flavors are coming from. The old ideas of pitching
(lagers) in the mid 40's (F) and letting the temperature rise to around
50 for the fermentation wouldn't fly with the White Labs strains.

So with respect to Darrel's questions: I like an 8 - 10% starter made
with 2 packages of yeast and I like to pitch at whatever temperature I
can get out of the chiller as I am now pitching in line. This is more
likely to be 55 than 45 though I would prefer the latter and if I had a
yeast that would perform at those temperatures and would probably bring
the fermenter down to the mid 40's after it is filled and then let the
temp rise to about 50 and hold it there for the duration of the
fermentation. When fermentation is complete I lower the temperature in 5
F steps over the course of a few days down to near freezing and keep it
in the ferementer at those temperatures for a week or 2 before racking
off to kegs for lagering (at about 35F) and serving. If I have to take
beer somewhere I'll rack it but if not I don't bother.

Now I have to say that I have used three new Whitelab yeast this year and apart from a delay for the starter to get going (It was 6 months old) I have had no problems. YMMV