Treating Water With a High Alkalinity for Brewing

[DarloDave]

am i right in thinking that if i have soft water and want to make a better pale ale, a teaspoon of gypsum will help? I dont wanna get too technical with water analysis yet, but is this right?

[DarloDave]

Oh I dont know anything about that, I just heard we had soft water here. Ill leave water analysis to the future I think
cheers anyway Chris

[smurf]

Evening all,

I’ve been reading this thread with great interest over the last few days as I want to get into water treatment a bit as my mash pH’s are a bit high. I bought the salifert kit and have done the test, (result = KH value 6.4dKH, Alkalinity 2.29 meq/l). I am a bit unsure about how to convert the results into mg/l CaCO3. Is it really as straight forward as multiplying the meq/l figure by 50 as suggested earlier in this thread, 50 seems a suspiciously round number?

[smurf]

The instructions don't give a conversion to mg/l CaCO3 there's just a table to convert the amount of reagent used into dKH or meq/l. Oh well I guess i'll give the 50 conversion factor a go when i brew this week and keep my fingers crossed!
Thanks anyway

[smurf]

Strange indeed unless i'm missing something?

I've scanned the instructions, hopefully there should be a link below:

[smurf]

i've done a bit more investigation it seems dKH is a german term meaning 'Degree Karbonate Hardness '
wikipedia says

Carbonate hardness, or Carbonate alkalinity is a measure of the alkalinity of water caused by the presence of carbonate (CO32-) and bicarbonate (HCO3-) ions. It is usually expressed either as parts per million (ppm or mg/L), or in degrees KH (from the German "Karbonathärte"). One German degree of carbonate hardness is equivalent to about 17.848 milligrams of calcium carbonate (CaCO3) per litre of water (17.848 ppm). Both measurements (mg/L or KH) are usually expressed "as CaCO3" – meaning the concentration of carbonate expressed as if calcium carbonate was the sole source of carbonate ions. Bicarbonate ions only contribute half as much carbonate hardness as carbonate ions, so bicarbonates that are present in the water are converted to an equivalent concentration of carbonates when determining KH

if i multiply one of the dkh values (say 8 dkh) by 17.848 i get 143mg/l CaCo3, if i then look for the equivalent meq/l figure in the chart (2.86meq/l) and multiply it by the conversion factor of 50 mentioned previously in this thread i get 143mg/l CaCO3 (much to my relief!!)

Phew

[smurf]

Chris it looks like our posts crossed and we are in agreement, thanks again for your help
i'm looking forward to seeing what my brews taste like after water treatment

[smurf]

mmmmmm! sounds good

[andysmok]

Here is my water info, lots and lots of numbers and figures but i can't seem to find the one i need! Can anyone spot anything useful


Parameter Min Average Max Units Regulatory standard Number of samples % failed
2,4,5-T <0.0100 <0.0123 <0.0148 µg/l 0.1 21 0.00
2,4-D <0.0100 <0.0100 0.0100 µg/l 0.1 21 0.00
2,4-DB <0.0100 <0.0118 <0.0135 µg/l 0.1 20 0.00
Aldrin <0.0014 <0.0022 0.0140 µg/l 0.03 33 0.00
Aluminium <2.60 <5.28 11.0 µg Al/l 200 25 0.00
Ammonium (ammonia and ammonium ions) <0.0231 <0.0235 <0.0328 mg NH4/l 0.5 23 0.00
Antimony 0.0800 0.151 0.280 µg Sb/l 5 9 0.00
Arsenic 0.180 0.284 0.390 µg As/l 10 9 0.00
Atrazine <0.0100 <0.0100 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 33 0.00
Benzene <0.0311 <0.0311 <0.0311 µg/l 1 31 0.00
Benzo(a)pyrene <0.0010 <0.0014 <0.0020 µg/l 0.01 10 0.00
Boron 0.0092 0.0167 0.0256 mg B/l 1 24 0.00
Bromate <0.233 <0.444 <0.470 µg BrO3/l 10 9 0.00
Bromoxynil <0.0100 <0.0100 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 18 0.00
Cadmium <0.0200 <0.0311 0.0400 µg Cd/l 5 9 0.00
Calcium 23.7 34.3 49.5 mg Ca/l 25 0.00
Carbendazim <0.0023 <0.0086 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 39 0.00
Carbofuran <0.0026 <0.0082 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 32 0.00
Chloride 12.9 24.4 41.4 mg Cl/l 250 24 0.00
Chromium <0.160 <0.379 0.840 µg Cr/l 50 9 0.00
Residual chlorine - Total 0.22 0.49 0.74 mg/l 51 0.00
Residual chlorine - Free 0.19 0.40 0.66 mg/l 51 0.00
Chlortoluron <0.0024 <0.0083 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 36 0.00
Colony Counts after 2 days at 37 deg C 0 0 4 number/1ml 28 0.00
Colony counts after 3 days at 22 deg C 0 2 22 number/1ml 28 0.00
Coliform bacteria 0 0 0 number/100ml 0 51 0.00
Colour 0.520 0.949 1.50 mg/l Pt/Co scale 20 25 0.00
Conductivity 175 280 427 uS/cm at 20oC 2500 14 0.00
Copper 0.0142 0.0460 0.0902 mg Cu/l 2 8 0.00
Clostridium perfringens (including spores) 0 0 0 number/100ml 0 26 0.00
Cyanide <0.698 <0.855 2.13 µg CN/l 50 25 0.00
Cyanazine <0.0035 <0.0086 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 37 0.00
1,2-dichloroethane <0.0753 <0.0753 <0.0753 µg/l 3 31 0.00
Diazinon <0.0100 <0.0100 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 29 0.00
Dicamba <0.0100 <0.0100 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 21 0.00
Dieldrin <0.0024 <0.0029 <0.0030 µg/l 0.03 34 0.00
Dichlorprop <0.0100 <0.0100 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 21 0.00
Diuron <0.0024 <0.0083 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 36 0.00
E.coli 0 0 0 number/100ml 0 51 0.00
Ethofumesate <0.0100 <0.0100 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 30 0.00
Enterococci 0 0 0 number/100ml 0 9 0.00
Fluoride <0.0300 <0.0322 0.0500 mg F/l 1.5 9 0.00
Fluroxypyr <0.0100 <0.0100 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 3 0.00
Total hardness 28 43 62 mg Ca/l 25 0.00
Heptachlor epoxide <0.0026 <0.0029 <0.0030 µg/l 0.03 32 0.00
Heptachlor <0.0004 <0.0008 <0.0010 µg/l 0.03 31 0.00
Ioxynil <0.0100 <0.0119 <0.0145 µg/l 0.1 24 0.00
Iron 10.1 24.1 129 µg Fe/l 200 25 0.00
Isoproturon <0.0026 <0.0096 0.0100 µg/l 0.1 37 0.00
Lead <0.120 <0.885 2.39 µg Pb/l 25 8 0.00
Lindane <0.0060 <0.0090 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 27 0.00
Linuron <0.0018 <0.0075 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 36 0.00
Magnesium 2.30 5.09 8.50 mg Mg/l 25 0.00
Manganese <0.200 <0.778 4.38 µg Mn/l 50 25 0.00
MCPA <0.0100 <0.0110 0.0300 µg/l 0.1 21 0.00
MCPB <0.0100 <0.0111 <0.0119 µg/l 0.1 5 0.00
Mecoprop <0.0100 <0.0114 0.0300 µg/l 0.1 21 0.00
Mercury <0.0100 <0.0260 0.0830 µg Hg/l 1 25 0.00
Metazachlor <0.0100 <0.0100 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 1 0.00
Methiocarb <0.0100 <0.0100 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 1 0.00
Nickel 0.800 1.07 1.80 µg Ni/l 20 8 0.00
Nitrite <0.0033 <0.0033 <0.0053 mg NO2/l 0.5 23 0.00
Nitrate 3.54 7.84 13.6 mg NO3/l 50 23 0.00
(Nitrate)/50 plus (nitrite)/3 0.0700 0.157 0.272 mg/l 1 23 0.00
Odour (quantitative) 0 0 0 dilution number at 25oC 14 0.00
Total organic carbon 1.08 1.43 1.90 mg C/l 25 0.00
Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (sum of 4 PAHs) 0.0000 0.0000 0.0000 µg/l 0.1 10 0.00
Pesticides - Total 0.0000 0.0030 0.0665 µg/l 0.5 103 0.00
Hydrogen ion (pH) 6.60 6.90 7.16 pH value 9.5 56 0.00
Propetamphos <0.0100 <0.0100 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 33 0.00
Propyzamide <0.0100 <0.0100 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 26 0.00
Radioactivity gross alpha <0.0120 <0.0171 0.0390 Bq/l 0.1 26 0.00
Radioactivity gross beta 0.0990 0.162 0.219 Bq/l 1 26 0.00
Selenium 0.500 0.602 1.00 µg Se/l 10 9 0.00
Simazine <0.0029 <0.0085 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 33 0.00
Sodium 8.53 19.0 31.0 mg Na/l 200 25 0.00
Sulphate 42.2 56.3 87.8 mg SO4/l 250 24 0.00
Taste (quantitative) 0 0 0 dilution number at 25oC 14 0.00
Tetrachloromethane 0.0200 <0.0369 0.100 µg/l 3 8 0.00
Trihalomethanes - Total 19.4 28.9 37.9 µg/l 100 8 0.00
Triclopyr <0.0100 <0.0126 <0.0155 µg/l 0.1 21 0.00
Triforine <0.0042 <0.0086 <0.0100 µg/l 0.1 37 0.00
Tritium <4.00 <4.00 <4.00 Bq/l 100 1 0.00
Tetrachloroethene and trichloroethene 0.0000 0.0075 0.0300 µg/l 10 8 0.00
Turbidity <0.04 <0.11 0.24 NTU 4 25 0.00

The report details drinking water quality for the last 12 months. The information is updated weekly and complies with regulation 35 (2) of the Water Supply (Water Quality) Regulations 2000.

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[Beerman3493]

want to make a pale ale my water report as follows.
Min Mean Max
Alkalinity as CaCO3 (ppm) 122 163 224
Calcium as Ca (ppm) 73 94 110
Magnesium as Mg (ppm) 4.6 6 7.3


fIxed the water using the CRS method and DSL method stated at this site hxxp://www.brupaks.com/water%20treatment.htm

But still not sure done correctly as my water company gives a Min Mean and Max level. So I could still be way out using their Mean figure.

Also now i have fixed the Alkalinity and calcium levels where does this leave me with the boil. Can the following items still be used or will they now ruine the water.

Burton Water Crystals
Gypsum
Irish Moss

[andysmok]

Ok i live in liverpool and my water is classed as soft according to there website (united utilities). I have just got the Total Alkalinity average for last year and it is 37.46 mg/l.
What sort of treatments would benifit my brewing?

[andysmok]

Thanks Chris, I suppose i should of got my water report first before i shelled out for a load of treatments!! Oh well i may need some of it in the future (when the Atlantic plate collides with Europe sending a chalk bed up below Liverpool!)

[Beerman3493]

That's a big variation. Your water may be supplied from different sources at different times of the day/week/month/year. With variations like that i'd test before each brew using a Salifert test kit http://www.aquatics-online.co.uk/catalo ... product863

Once you know the alkalinity treat to the desired residual alkalinity with Brupaks CRS.

1 ml neautralises 180mg of CaCO3 so if your water was 205 mg/l CaCO3 and you want a residual alkalinity of 25mg/l them add 1ml of Brupaks CRS per litre (or 30 mls to 30L etc).

Irish moss can be used (in the last 10 mins of every boil), protafloc or whirlfloc tablets are better.

The others i've explained elsewhere.

You may be right. Added 23ml CRS solution to 7 gallons of my waterr (assuming my water was 163) to get it to 30mg/l. 40 minutes into the mash I checked the mash with my ph meter and had a reading of 4.9. I was checking the mash at mash temp 151f rather than room temp to get an accurate reading. My Halina ph meter has a thermostat so it can adjust readings for mesured temp. I know the meter is accurate as tested it with buffer solution before the test. Can there be large variations in ph during the mash or have I now messed up the mash.

Also before the mash i did a test with 5.5 litres of my water which I added 5ml CRS which took the ph to 4.6. I then calculated from this result that 31.5 litres (7 gallons) would need about 23ml of CRS. As this agreed with the water reading I added 23ml to the 31.5 litres.

[Beerman3493]

Well the mash worked out just fine gravity wise. 30 point per 1lb malt. It was a night mare once i had gotten to the boil stage as found my cooker would only heat 1 gallon to boil point so ended up all night doing several boils and coolings just to get the batch done. Will buy the brewheat boiler after this experience. I guess still better to use the mash tune to mash rather than the brew heat boiler?

[Beerman3493]

I recieved the pond test kit today. Result is meq/l 4.11 for my filtered water. Now how do i convert to mg/l Have done a goole search and still not sure. Am i right in thinking i have to multiply the result by 50. This would give 205ml

So if this is correct i needed about 30ml/l of CRS not 23 that i used. If this is the case then mash ph must have dropped by more than a few points to 4.9 after about 40mins even though i did not use enough CRS. Possible i took a reading of the ph after about an hour but no longer.