How much bitterness do you get from a FWH addition? Beersmith and Promash put it as the same as a 60 minute addition but I've heard some people on forums say it's the equivalent bitterness of a 20 minute addition. Can anyone share any experience?
Thanks.
First wort hopping & bitterness
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tribs
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steve_flack
Oh man, I had a discussion like this last week on morebeers forums. Personally I think the 20 minute thing is rubbish. Are you seriously saying that a hop addition that sits in the kettle for longer than a copper bittering addition somehow miraculously looses over 60% of it's bittering power? I'd believe it loses a little bit in the hot break and if you skim but in my personal eperience of using a lot of FWH I simply do not believe the 20 minute idea. It's interesting to note that not one program uses it as a default for FWH - promash uses 90% of the boil addition utilization and BeerSmith uses a bit more.
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tribs
There are two schools of thought on this topic 
1) FWH provides more or less the same bitterness as the bittering addition
2) FWH provides the same level of bittering as a 20 min addition.
Personally, I don't know how close the 20 min addition is because I have not really experimented with it. What I do know is that if I had added the same amounts as a bittering addition instead of FWH in the beers I have brewed that way they would have been horribly bitter. They didn't turn out that way and the hop flavours have been great.
1) FWH provides more or less the same bitterness as the bittering addition
2) FWH provides the same level of bittering as a 20 min addition.
Personally, I don't know how close the 20 min addition is because I have not really experimented with it. What I do know is that if I had added the same amounts as a bittering addition instead of FWH in the beers I have brewed that way they would have been horribly bitter. They didn't turn out that way and the hop flavours have been great.
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steve_flack
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PieOPah
I didn't realize that adding hops before and after the hot break would make a difference.
Normally I wait until the Hot Break has cleared before adding my hops. This is when I start the boil time.
My last batch I thought what the hell and dumped in my hops as soon as the boil had started rolling. Honestly didn't think it would matter.
I hope I haven't lost too much utilisation since I didn't use that many hops to begin with....
Normally I wait until the Hot Break has cleared before adding my hops. This is when I start the boil time.
My last batch I thought what the hell and dumped in my hops as soon as the boil had started rolling. Honestly didn't think it would matter.
I hope I haven't lost too much utilisation since I didn't use that many hops to begin with....
I've never added hops at the start of the boil, I wait 15 minutes to allow the hot break first.
I don't see why adding them before this would reduce the utilisation at all - what would the technical/chemical reason be? For example how would the alpha acid in the FWHs be destroyed/removed so that it couldn't be isomerised in the boil and contribute fully to bitterness?
I'm confused.
I don't see why adding them before this would reduce the utilisation at all - what would the technical/chemical reason be? For example how would the alpha acid in the FWHs be destroyed/removed so that it couldn't be isomerised in the boil and contribute fully to bitterness?
I'm confused.
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tribs
Jim, I think the theory is that the alpha acids are coagulated with the hot break and do not dissolve as readily as hops added afterwards, but I think something else is going on too because in my experience adding hops after the boil has begun but before the hot break doesn't affect bitterness that much. The fact is there isn't a lot of info available. I don't think much research has been done outside homebrewing circles.
FWIW a 20 min addition will only give ~40% less bittering than full boil hops and I reckon thats not too far out for FWH. I'd say it is a lot less than the 10% that Promash uses by default. I noticed a number of American homebrewers are using -65% utilisation believing it to give the equivalent to a 20 min addition which is incorrect.
I am willing to believe that the increase in hop flavour decreases the perception of bitterness in much the same way as residual sugars balance bitterness but this is not reflected in the BU:GU ratio which is what I would normally use to account for this. Thats probably why a lot of homebrewers reduce their IBUs to compensate.
I too add bittering hops after the hot break.
FWIW a 20 min addition will only give ~40% less bittering than full boil hops and I reckon thats not too far out for FWH. I'd say it is a lot less than the 10% that Promash uses by default. I noticed a number of American homebrewers are using -65% utilisation believing it to give the equivalent to a 20 min addition which is incorrect.
I am willing to believe that the increase in hop flavour decreases the perception of bitterness in much the same way as residual sugars balance bitterness but this is not reflected in the BU:GU ratio which is what I would normally use to account for this. Thats probably why a lot of homebrewers reduce their IBUs to compensate.
I too add bittering hops after the hot break.
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jasonaustin
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tribs
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mysterio
No clear consensus then!
IBUs can be annoying, but after one batch that was too sweet and one that was too bitter I've got my calculations down. I'm planning a couple of FWH brews so I'll report back with what I find. Luckily I've got some isomerised hop extract to pep up any brews that are too sweet.
I have to admit I find it hard to believe that they lose so much bitterness as to only be equivalent to a 20 min addition but I don't have any experience to say otherwise, and I won't pretend to know the science behind it all!
IBUs can be annoying, but after one batch that was too sweet and one that was too bitter I've got my calculations down. I'm planning a couple of FWH brews so I'll report back with what I find. Luckily I've got some isomerised hop extract to pep up any brews that are too sweet.
I have to admit I find it hard to believe that they lose so much bitterness as to only be equivalent to a 20 min addition but I don't have any experience to say otherwise, and I won't pretend to know the science behind it all!
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mysterio
Just tasted the Amarillo IPA I made and it is very sweet. According to Beersmith it should have been 42 IBU (in a 1.064 brew), but it tasted more like ~30 to me. So I put the FWH addition down to a 20 minute addition on Beersmith and sure enough it put it around 32 IBUs in total. Luckily I've got hop extract to beef it up. The hop flavour is amazing though, which is certainly down to the FWH seeing as theres only a few grams of normal flavour hops in the recipe.
Just goes to show there's no sure thing in homebrewing!
Just goes to show there's no sure thing in homebrewing!
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tribs
It should be 42 IBU with the FWH @ -40% utilisation ~ 20 min addition anyway. Two things:
1) I've noticed the H&G amarillo pellets are now @ 7.5%AA. When I purchased them they were @ 8%AA which is reflected in my recipe. This should only account for a few IBUs though.
2) Perhaps confusingly, the recipe was for a brew length of 20 litres (fits nicely in a cornie) If you had the FWH bittering set incorrectly
and it came out as 42 IBUs you may not have nticed this and adjusted your recipe if you were brewing more.
Also, if you remember, at first I advised adding a few more grams to the bittering addition, but after a couple of weeks I had decided it was bitter enough. Could this be due to the dry hops in the keg adding something to the bitterness?
1) I've noticed the H&G amarillo pellets are now @ 7.5%AA. When I purchased them they were @ 8%AA which is reflected in my recipe. This should only account for a few IBUs though.
2) Perhaps confusingly, the recipe was for a brew length of 20 litres (fits nicely in a cornie) If you had the FWH bittering set incorrectly
and it came out as 42 IBUs you may not have nticed this and adjusted your recipe if you were brewing more. Also, if you remember, at first I advised adding a few more grams to the bittering addition, but after a couple of weeks I had decided it was bitter enough. Could this be due to the dry hops in the keg adding something to the bitterness?
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mysterio
I don't think I paid enough attention when scaling up my hops for a 5 UK gallon batch, especially with Beersmith's FWH estimate.
At least I've discovered that FWH gives bitterness equivalent to 20 minutes.
I actually got rid of my dry hops after a week in the secondary, I didn't like how much hop particulate was seeping out of the hop bag and I dont want to modify my dip tube just yet...
At least I've discovered that FWH gives bitterness equivalent to 20 minutes.
I actually got rid of my dry hops after a week in the secondary, I didn't like how much hop particulate was seeping out of the hop bag and I dont want to modify my dip tube just yet...