deuchars ipa

[Andy]

Tell us what your mashing / sparging method is and the kit you use to do it....

[slurp the apprentice]

I use a burco boiler with a simmerstat i get it to 70 degrees then add the grist stir it so no air or dry pockets and try to keep temp as near to 65 degrees as i can.After 90 mins i drain the boiler into fermenting bucket refill boiler raise temp up to 80 degrees and leave for 15 mins then drain into f/bucket i pour couple of kettle loads of water and when drain liquid looks clear pour whats collected in f/bucket back in boiler for the boil.I only sparge up to 4 gallons as i dont know how efficient the mash has been at this stage and dont want an understrenght beer.My hydrometer is calibrated at 20 degrees so i take a reading after the boil usually 8-10 hrs later.Then i add water to get the right OG

[SteveD]

For starters you're collecting far too low a volume pre boil, and I think that one refill and drain + a couple of kettles isn't going to give good extraction. Common practice is for the volume of sparge liquor alone to equal your brew length, so total liquor required for the brew is Mash liquor volume + brew length. Check the runnings from the towards the end of the sparge. If you can't taste any sugar, then you're there. Or, check with a hydrometer, and stop when the gravity falls to 1006 or near, but not below. Note, adjust for temperature if you don't cool the runnings to 20c.

Daab's table of G1006 readings, adjusted for temperature. - reproduced without permission

Eg, at 79c, G980 = G1006 at 20c

79 - 980
78 - 981
77 - 981
76 - 982
75 - 983
74 - 983
73 - 984
72 - 984
71 - 985
70 - 986
69 - 986
68 - 987
67 - 987
66 - 988
65 - 988
64 - 989
63 - 990
62 - 990
61 - 991
60 - 991
59 - 992
58 - 992
57 - 993
56 - 993
55 - 994
54 - 994
53 - 995
52 - 995
51 - 996
50 - 996
49 - 997
48 - 997
46 - 998
45 - 998
44 - 999


Then, you boil down to near your required final volume during the course of the boil, typically 90mins. Once you lose a bit to the hops you should have your required final volume in the fermenter without needing to top up.

A lot depends on your boiler. If it isn't powerful enough, it could take hours to boil down to the required volume. If it isn't big enough then you can't sparge the goods thoroughly enough before you run out of room in the boiler. Either your extraction efficiency takes a hit, or you have to mess about holding excess wort in other vessels until you can add it back to the boil as space becomes available, or boil it down seperately. Doesn't sound ideal to me!

Refilling and draining again is ok, but do it more than once, or, you need to sparge, and if so then if should be a fine sprinke of liquor at about 77c over the whole surface of the grain, so that it runs through the entire grain bed evenly. If you haven't got anything fabricated to do that, use a clean watering can.

Is the malt pre-crushed? How is it stored? Is it in an airtight container? How long have you had it? Crushed malt has a limited shelf life and must be kept in an dry, airtight, and preferably warm environment because it's hygroscopic - it absorbs moisture from the air. If it does that it will go 'slack' and will be useless for brewing. I'm hoping your 25kg pre-crushed sack hasn't been sitting vaguely closed in a damp shed over the winter. You might as well bin it if that's the case.

In the mash, is the heating element in direct contact with the grain? If so, you're cooking it to death in the localised hotspot by the element. If this happens for an exended period of time, you could hurt the malt's power to convert starch to sugar - lower efficiency.

There may be other reasons for poor efficiency I've missed which no doubt others will point out.

[SteveD]

i take a reading after the boil usually 8-10 hrs later.Then i add water to get the right OG

Whoooaa. I missed that bit. You need to cool quicker than that. At the very least put the fermenter in the bath, filled with cold water, before you top up. Agitate the wort very gently at first, it will speed the cooling, but don't aerate. As it gets near to 20c you can really give the wort some stick to get some air into it. It should take about 60 mins to get down to pitching temperature. Check OG then, and top up with chlorine free liquor if necessary. Use cool sparge liquor. To remove chlorine if necessary, add a crushed campden tab to the liquor you plan to use to top up. To remove bicarbonate, add a teaspoon of lactic acid, if you have it.

(This is only if you haven't already pre-treated your mash/sparge liquor, by that method or others, and are using some of that to top up.)

[slurp the apprentice]

Thanks theres alot for me to consider.Two things i dont understand ,what do you mean by brew length ? and what difference to brew efficiency does it make to cooling the wort quicker ? I leave it to cool overnite becos when i start a brew its usually after i get in from work and then i have to prise the kitchen from the miss's once the mash sparge and boil has been done its getting on for bedtime as our bath is upstairs i would find it difficult to cool the wort here without waking the household.
The crushed malt is in a strong polythene sack inside a hessian sack inside a plastic blackbin in a cool pantry but my mash efficiency has remained constant even when i have bought the malt from a HB shop and used it the same day

[SteveD]

Ok, malt storage doesn't seem to be the problem.

Brew length is brewerspeak for the volume of beer in your fermenter. So, relating it to the sparge, if you want 5 gallons of beer in your fementer, you sparge the mash with 5 gallons of liquor for good extraction. (rule of thumb - not cast iron.)

Ah here I go again. Liquor:- Brewerspeak for the water that is actually used to make the beer, as opposed to that used for washing, sterilisation, cooling, etc. 'Liquor' therefore is mash, sparge, top up, and yeast starter water. 'Water' is everything else.

Cooling time.. no bearing on efficiency whatsoever. Extraction efficiency all happens in the mashtun, and you measure it by noting the OG and volume you have in the boiler, before you add the hops. Brewhouse efficiency is measured by noting the volume and OG you have in the fermenter, before the yeast is pitched. It takes into account lossed through ullage (equipment has a bearing on this), and hop absorption. I work on brewhouse efficiency.

I just noted that you were cooling for that long. Crash cooling has 3 advantages. (1) It shortens the brewday (or reduces it to one day!) (2) Minimises the time the wort is open to infection before the yeast kicks in (3) It assists the cold break. Forced cooling is thought to precipitate out more trub - surplus protein that could cause haze in finished beer.

It looks like your problem is to do with your 'sparge' technique, at a guess.

[SteveD]

If you are brewing a 23L recipe, brew length equals 23L (it's just another term for quantity, nothing clever).

I think what Steve is saying is you need to collect more wort from the grains.

He's suggesting either sparging and collecting wort equal to the final quantity of beer required, ie 23L in the case of a 23L recipe, or sparging until the gravity of the run off drops to 1006. If you measure the gravity without cooling the sample first it will need correcting for temperature. eg. if the sample is 66 deg then from the table you can see you can sparge down to an indicated gravity of 988 because once corrected for temperature this equals 1006.

Ahhh the eloquence of Daab A few lines to get across what takes me an essay!

However, Daab hasn't quite got what I meant. You collect more than the final volume required. You sparge with a volume of sparge liquor that roughly equals you target volume in the fermenter. Eg for a 23L recipe, use about 23L sparge liquor. This is in addition to the the mash liquor. So, when you run off the mash, you might get 8-9L in the boiler before sparging, depending on mash stiffness. Then, you sparge with about 23L, to end up with about 30-33L. This you boil down to say 25-26L over the course of 90 mins or so. Once you've lost some to the hops, and lost a bit here or there, you should end up with 23L in your fermenter.

The important thing then becomes - how big is the boiler? 33l is 7.2 gals. Then, you need head room to avoid the stress of boilovers as the wort kicks up a lot of foam in the first few minutes of the boil. I would say a 10 gallon (45L) boiler is a must.

[slurp the apprentice]

Thanks for both of your replies i can see it now . The bad news is my boiler is 33l but i did get it for nothing ! I will from now collect the right amount of wort and check the gravity level if its dropped to 1006 and if i still have not got 23l or more then the problem would be incorrect mash temperture or poor ingredients ? Out of interest what would be the result if you didnot sparge but boiled the grain and the mash together?

[tubby_shaw]

Thanks for both of your replies i can see it now . The bad news is my boiler is 33l but i did get it for nothing ! I will from now collect the right amount of wort and check the gravity level if its dropped to 1006 and if i still have not got 23l or more then the problem would be incorrect mash temperture or poor ingredients ? Out of interest what would be the result if you didnot sparge but boiled the grain and the mash together?

You would have a boiler with a lot of burnt grains stuck to it
You would have a wort which was full of tannins and oils which would make an undrinkable beer
And you would still need to separate the grains from the wort and rinse the sugars from the grain at some point anyway

[mysterio]

The Germans have been boiling parts of the mash for centuries without any tannin extraction - the acidic PH of the mash seems to prevent it. It seems to be the combination of high temperatures and PHs above 6 (ish) that causes the problem, hence why over-sparging and high temperature sparge water might be a problem.

[SteveD]

Decoction mashing involves boiling a small part of the thick part mash for a short period. I still reckon boiling grains for 90 mins runs the risk of tannin extraction, after all it still advised in brewing texts to remove specialty grains before boiling when making an extract brew. Besides, what advantage would this have?

If it was worth doing, they'd have done it by now. They've tried everything else!! Empirical wisdom tells us it's a no-no. My guess is that apart from extracting nasties, the boil might turn the goods to gummy mush and block any attempt to rinse off the wort. I wouldn't even contemplate going there.

[SteveD]

I assume thats directed at Mysterio and not me Steve

Directed at Mysterio, and backing you up. Yes. You are the master and we are all unworthy in your presence.

BTW, the North Hants Beer Club, Winchester based. Is that something you're likely to get involved with? It's not a million miles from Totton.

[Immy's Dad]

Besides it's looking increasingly likely that I have hung up my brewing paddle for the last time

[mysterio]

I wasn't suggesting boiling all the grains I'm sure that would be pretty stupid.

But, boiling part of the mash isn't always a bad thing.

[SteveD]

Besides it's looking increasingly likely that I have hung up my brewing paddle for the last time

But.....you're the Master!

Any reason in particular?