Weizenbock with Leute yeast

[TheMumbler]

I have some wheat malt I'd like to use up and have some yeast from Leute (a Belgian bock) culturing up at the moment.

23l
OG 1081
FG 1020
IBU 30 (probably from hallertauer)
14 lovibond/ ~28 EBC

3600g Wheat malt
2500g Munich
1200g Golden Promise
600g Crystal

I'm considering subbing some or all of the crystal for a mix of carabelge and cara aroma, I also have some crystal wheat. Maybe a tiny touch of roasted wheat (say 50-100g) for colour and a hint of roastiness...

Any thoughts, comments greatly appreciated. If anybody has used the Leute yeast before or knows anything about it I'd be very interested.

[Barley Water]

Well, before I get going here, a couple of disclaimers. First of all, I usually don't brew Weizenbock however I do quite a bit of wheat bier, especially Heffeweizen and I know many of the "tricks". Secondly, I have no experience with the particular yeast strain you plan to use although most Belgian strains will tend to be extremely fruity and some will throw off quite a bit of bananna and clove phenolics and esters (I use the Chimay yeast alot and the trick with that stuff is to keep the bananna down to a low roar).

Ok, so my comments refer to making a traditional German Weizenbock, if you are really after a funky Belgian brew, just ignore all this. The way our buddies in the "Fatherland" do it, you want a massive amount of clove/bananna, the classic for this style is Aventenous (spelling?). I would probably use WLP300 if I were making this beer because I know that stuff can "get it done" as far as the bannna/clove thing goes. Also, the yeast is not very floculent and you want the beer cloudy with lots of that nice yeast. Also, I would not let any roasted malt get within 100 yards of a wheat beer. If you want additional color, I would use the debittered Carafa malt, you get the dark without the astringent roast flavor. Finally, I think I would go even lighter on the hops than you propose, maybe drop the IBU's down to somewhere between 15 and 20, you don't want any bitterness at all, it's all about the yeast dervied flavors.

I can go on all day about fermenting Heffeweizen but it's all about fermentation control. Suffice it to say that I do things to a Heffe that I would never even dream of with any other style (if you really want me to elaborate, let me know otherwise I will spare you my wheat bier sermon). Anyhow, my final suggestion would be to do a decoction on this stuff, for some reason wheat biers just love it more than any other style I can think of. Besides the big time yeast flavors, you want the good mouthfeel and those melonodins go a long way to making the beer really good.

I am currently getting ready for our really big contest over here. We need to get entries in by the end of February and it's almost time for me to start up with the wheat beers since you want them uber fresh for the judging. I know I am going to do a Heffe and I was considering doing a Dunkelweizen but I may deviate from my original plan and do a Weizenbock after reading this. This year, I am doing open fermentations with my German wheat biers and I am doing to try and find a shallower fermenter in an attempt to maximize the clove and bananna flavors, we will see what happens. Of course, I will be decocting the hell out of both biers, what can I say?

[chris_reboot]

sorry to thread hijack Ben, but love to know more Barley Water as I'm attempting my 1st Hefe really soon.
Have all the ingredients and WLP300 starter ready to go.

What 'tips'?
eg mash temps, fermenting temps etc?
pm me if you'd rather not clutter this thread

[TheMumbler]

I can go on all day about fermenting Heffeweizen but it's all about fermentation control. Suffice it to say that I do things to a Heffe that I would never even dream of with any other style (if you really want me to elaborate, let me know otherwise I will spare you my wheat bier sermon).

Go for it BW, I'd be interested to see what else you have to say about wheat beer. Since I'm using a totally different yeast it won't be relevant now, more of a funky belgian thing but I could always go for a compare and contrast. Also helpful for Chris and there is a reasonable chance I'll reap the rewards in a bottle swap at some point

Aleman mentioned that I might struggle to convert all the wheat malt on thbf so I may alter the proportions a bit anyway (munich down, pale up).

[TheMumbler]

According to this page fermentation should be 20-25*C for the Leute yeast.

[Barley Water]

Ok, I will try not to get too verbose. By the way, I made a 70/30 malted wheat/malted barley beer using Munich malt for the barley and had no problems converting (I did however learn something else with that particular bier which I will share below). My understanding is that malted wheat will easily convert itself, am I missing something here? Anyway, what I have learned about making heffeweizen (which will also apply to Dunkelweizen and Weizenbock):

-Fermentation temperature is very important (it's like brewing a Belgian in that regard) if you want clove, go lower (say 65F or even a little less) if you want bananna go higher (say 68F). My experience has shown that over 68F you will get bananna but you will also start to get fussels which will mess up the taste. It is just amazing how much difference adjusting this parameter makes. You can take the same recipe and ferment at two different temperature and effectively get two different beers.

-If you want more clove, do an "acid rest" at about 110-115F. I wouldn't go for more than 15 minutes though or you may start hurting the head retention which is a really bad thing with German wheat biers.

-I like WLP300 because you get the most bananna however, you will do better in contests if you have a good mix of both clove and bananna but you want those flavors to be very assertive.

-Here is the radical stuff, I never oxigenate the wort and I do not make a starter, I just dump the contents of the tube into the fresh, cooled wort. Effectively I am under pitching on purpose to try and increase the signature yeast derived flavors which are produced during the lag phase when the yeast are multiplying. I want to make it as hard on the little buggers as possible because they give up the flavors better if you beat them up a little. The reason that Weizenbock has more yeast derived flavor is because of the higher starting gravity, the yeast is working even harder that in a normal heffe.

-By all means, decoct the beer. You will not even place in a wheat bier contest over here unless you do. I personally know every one of the players in this style over here and every one of them does a decoction on their entry. Besides making for very good body (it's almost creamy) you get some melonodin products which makes the malt flavors more complex. As with most German bier, the trick is not in the formulation, it's all about good brewhouse technique.

-Always pitch a new tube of yeast. I learned this the hard way last year when I made a Dunkelweizen on the yeast cake of a previously fermented heffeweizen. The beer just did not have the same ester/phenolic profile (see the under pitching discussion above) and I got my butt kicked with that bier (and took a second with my heffe, go figure).

-From recent study, this year I am doing open fermentations. The Germans have determined that you get more ester/phenol action in the presence of oxigen. I have not personally tried this yet by give me a couple of weeks and I will tell you how well it works.

-Fermenter geometry makes a difference. Basicly, a taller fermenter will reduce the yeast by products, everything else being equal. Not only is this true for German wheat biers but all beers in general. Good to know if playing with Belgians especially since you want to play up the yeast flavors in those styles as well.

- I naturally cabonate these beers and do a poor man's kraussen (ie; I use Wheat DME to carbonate rather than corn sugar or forced carbonation). Essentially, I want this stuff to be cloudy with alot of yeast in suspension, it effects the mouthfeel and flavor as well (I like my wheat bier with yeast). I also get the carbonation way up there, you want a great big, long lasting head on this stuff. I bottle for competitions but otherwise keg the stuff. I actuall have longer beer line in my keg set up for wheat bier to handle the extra carbonation.

Well, that is the sum total of what I know about heffe weizen, hopefully that will be useful to somebody. I will be brewing the first of my two wheat biers this weekend, we will see how it goes. Good luck and let us know how it works out.

[chris_reboot]

wow!
awesome post BW.
many thanks, and very useful info for me.
too late on the starter point as I've already made it, but good to know for next time.

thanks for taking the time to write that, I'll bookmark this.
Chris.

[TheMumbler]

My understanding is that malted wheat will easily convert itself, am I missing something here?

After a quick look around it seems that wheat malt varies in that regard with British malts less able to convert than those typically used in the USA according to some bloke on the interwebs. From what I could see after a brief google, wheat malt has enough enzyme content to convert 74-95% depending on origin. I couldn't find any information on diastatic power on the Fawcetts site, but my recipe should be OK assuming 75% self conversion since the Munich will convert itself. Diastatic power is apparently measured in Lintners, I didn't really research it in depth.

Aleman may have just misremembered, he was clear about it being an off the top of his head type comment, and I've learnt something so that is good.

[Barley Water]

Chris, it's not too late, just don't pitch all your starter.

Mumbler, I'm glad that malted wheat will convert itself. I am very lazy and have not bothered to check for conversion on anything I have brewed in years, I just have never had a problem. Of course, if I am doing a high adjunct beer (I just love to mess with grits) I make damn sure to include some American six row since that stuff could convert a pebble, at least according to those in the know.

[chris_reboot]

excellent.
I'll halve it then.

[Barley Water]

Well, I brewed up my heffe this weekend, it makes for a long brewday doing a double decoction but hopefully it will be worth it. I also set up a blow-off tube which is just aimed into a bucket but is otherwise open to the the air so we will see how this goes, I have very high hopes. Frankly I am a little worried about this primarily because I can grow some very wierd looking stuff in my fermentation frig and I also just got done doing a batch of Oud Bruin. I really don't want those critters in my wheat bier (although I did a closed ferentation on that stuff and of course have a dedicated racking cane and tubing along with dedicated air locks etc). Anyway, I will post up once I see how it all comes out.

[chris_reboot]

with the decoction, how are you doing it?
been reading about this in the Randy Mosher book, but bit confused over 'thick' and 'thin'.

What I understand so far, is that we take a portion of the mash out the tun, heat it (to boiling I think?), then add back to tun.
Repeat.

So starting temp is X, raises to Y when decoction is added back, then rises to Z after second decoction.
So we get protein rest, then enzyme temp, then sacchirification (?).

So for a 5 gallon batch say, what volumes and temps are you using for the Hefe?

[Barley Water]

I cheat a little. Basicly what I do is mash in and let the entire mash covert. I then pull a "dry decoction" (I have a colunder with a long handle which is perfect for fishing the grain out of my mashtun and leaving the liquid and enzymes behind in the main mash). I then add water and a little of that 5.2 stuff to keep the ph from rising and then boil the hell out of it (for instance I did two decoctions and boiled each for 30 minutes on the weizen I just made). I don't do decoctions to hit mash temperatures, I do it because I am looking for melonodin reactions as well as effecting the body of the bier. Although the main mash will get over 170F, that is really not a problem for me because I keep the ph controlled with the 5.2 buffer, otherwise you run the real risk of extracting tannins. By the way, a hot mash is much easier to run off, especially when dealing with wheat. Of course, I also employ rice hulls to make sure I don't end up with a stuck mash as my formulation is 70% wheat and I close down the gap on my mill when dealing with wheat since the kernals are smaller than malted barley.

As an aside, if you do batch sparing, you can use the buffer to control mash ph and reduce the risk of tannin extraction on all the beers you make. I rountinely just run all the liquid out of my mash tun into the copper and have never had an issue, something I would not try if I fly sparged. Also, batch sparing is just easier on my system and frankly I have not noticed any problems with extraction rates.

[chris_reboot]

OK, think I get it.

before I contemplate the decoction method though, am I going to get second rate Hefe's without this (i do not intend to win competitions like you with my beer!) ?

If I read you right then, I need to mash as usual at 67C (whatever that is in F), then part way in, scoop (some? how much?) of the grain out in the sieve, boil it up for 30 mins, then add back in.
Repeat.

Drain MT and batch sparge the rest at normal sparge temp (80C for me).

Is that right?

[leedsbrew]

I know BW has covered this more than adequately but I thought I'd chip my experiences with this style with regard to pitching rates and temp. I brewed a batch of a schneider weisseish beer, fermented at 20oC with a 1L starter in 23L. It turned out just as I wanted with lots of the banana flavour I was after.

This batch wasn't going to last very long so I decided to get another on the go. I pitched axaclty the same recipe beer onto the yeast cake of the 1st batch, fermented at 20oC.

I was very disapointed when it wasn't a shaddow of the 1st. It had a very muted banana flavour, no where near as good. It seems now that I 'over' pitched, or at lest I hadn't stressed the yeast as in the 1st batch!

Thanks for sheading some light on it BW!

good luck with yours C-R