RIMS/HERMs single vessel setup

[ajclarkson]

Really interesting thread, as I mentioned on your other one I am looking in the distant future to go for something similar, so I find your groundwork and experimenting here both incredibly useful and fascinating kev!

The idea that came up about dropping the bottom pot rather than lifting the grain tube sounds really promising to me, initially I thought I would be making a much smaller capacity system than this, but removing the need to have to rig up some sort of winch above might mean I can go to a larger capacity and still protect my back!

[barneey]

Well for what is worth, I hope you get your upward flow system working, if you need any spare bits of ss pipe (1/2) let me know sure I could sort something out.

cheers

[Kev888]

Really interesting thread, as I mentioned on your other one I am looking in the distant future to go for something similar, so I find your groundwork and experimenting here both incredibly useful and fascinating kev!
The idea that came up about dropping the bottom pot rather than lifting the grain tube sounds really promising to me, initially I thought I would be making a much smaller capacity system than this, but removing the need to have to rig up some sort of winch above might mean I can go to a larger capacity and still protect my back!

Hi, glad its of use! Hopefully its going to turn into something good, but only time will tell - at this point I could be talking complete cack.. Yep, I'm estimating a high gravity double-corny batch of wet grain will weigh about 30kg even once the extra water has drained out; lifting it up first, to make that happen, sounds like its something to respect!

Well for what is worth, I hope you get your upward flow system working, if you need any spare bits of ss pipe (1/2) let me know sure I could sort something out.

Thanks! I'll see how things go - it'll be a while before I know what sizes things are going to be.

Cheers
Kev

[barneey]

Another lifting / jack idea, whilst gliding along on my office chair this afternoon it occured to me that it was fitted with a gas lift I`m nearly 100kg and it supports me fine.

[Kev888]

I wonder if work have counted their chairs recently...

Just done a quick measurement and sadly my pots will always be far too tall for the amount of travel in a normal chair (unless I increase the velocity ratio of the gas lift), but it could work in some setups

Cheers
Kev

[Kev888]

I got chance to think more about the arrangement of the tanks/pots today. In one way I'm in luck as they nest so closely, and that seems to be the most flexible approach for doing small high gravity brews (not just bigger ones). In another way though its awkward as the rim of the inner pot won't fit inside the bigger one, so on smaller batches theres an air gap below the grain (still not decided on up or downward recirc so have drawn both):

You can see that with downward recirc the grain wouldn't really be suspended in water unless I could ballance the draining and recirculation rate, and even then it would splash down. With upward recirc it could be a bit more convenient, but the drainage pipe could still suck in air.

What I would ideally like is the pot lower down, like this:

But as you can see, the rim doesn't fit, and having poked/flexed the stock pot I'm very dubious about it being strong enough if I cut the rim off. For the downward recirculation setup I could add a rim inside the pot instead, so thats a definate possibility. But for the upward one this could/would be awkward for getting the close-fitting false bottoms past; possibly I could raise the rim instead, by doing a cut-and-shut job with a second pot to make a taller one, I'm wondering if you could successfully JB-weld two pots together?? (I think there's just enough clearance for a lap joint)

Another option would be to pad out the space that would otherwise be air by essentially making the pot base 'very' thick (the purple mass is my attempt to draw that):

but that seems a bit crude, and I can't think of a good way of doing it with a food-grade, easily clean-able and affordable material

So at the mo I'm looking at either an internal rim and downward recirculation. Or trying to JB-weld two stock pots together to make a taller one, with a thin hoop of pot wall making a lap joint - does that sound at all feasible or sensible, though? (Of course, I could just use a grain bag, but as I've already got the stock pots it seems a shame not to use them).

Cheers
Kev

[Matho]

hey Kev this is all very interesting,

One of the advantages of the upward recirculation is that once you get the flow going it won't ever compact and stop the flow like you can get with the downward recirculation. this is great for semi- automated brewing but not so much of an advantage if your watching the brew. It's good to see the design process and this thread will no doubt serve as a great resource. One thing too note is that with my braumiser and the braumeister, the flow runs down the side of the malt pipe and its a fairly gentle flow, I don't think hot side aeration is going to happen too much.

cheers steve

[Kev888]

Thanks Steve, this sort of first-hand info is very helpful indeed.

Yes I was first attracted to the upward recirculation for exactly that reason; I think at the time I also imbued it with unreasonable expectations, but coming back down to reality it still seems the best method of doing what I want (in terms of set-and-forget), so its really good to hear its working out for you. At the mo I can see me going with it unless the conventional downward way turns out to be 'considerably' easier.

I'm sure that you're right about HSA too - clearly lots of people use the braumeister and similar approaches and they make great beer so it can't be much of an issue. In my case I specifically want the beer to keep for as long as possible, so avoiding oxidising the hot wort seems logical but if it becomes too inconvenient then I'm not going to worry about it. I'm getting fairly close to that point at the mo actually, as things would be easier with my pots if I just let it spill over a rim (either of the inner pot or a pipe).

Thanks again,
Kev

[Kev888]

The build has started!! Although to be honest, its more destruction than build so far.

For some time I've been wanting to learn how to weld thin stainless, so I've decided now is the time. 'If' i can develop the skill needed, I'm going to weld two 100L french pots into one taller one for the grain basket (if I can't then I'll have to get them welded for me). So this afternoon I had a bit of fun with the angle grinder:

I cut the very bottom off one and the top two thirds off the other. The pots seem to have slightly angled-in sides just before the curve of the base starts, so the very bottom of the taller pot will just fit inside the shorter one; i'm hoping a lap joint that I grind back may be easier than a butt joint when it comes to inexpert welding, and also overcomes any slight dodgyness in the flatness of my cuts.

Or at least it did fit in - I tried the big pot inside the shorter part and all was well, but it was a tight fit and now the bottom is gone from the bigger pot (with its helpful radius) I can't make the floppy walls line-up/tesselate again. I'm sure I can sort it, but its something I'd not anticipated.

This is why I'm doing it:

I want the french pot (on the right) to become a grain basket, lowered into my existing larger boiler tank (on the left), but the rim won't fit in so I can't lower the pot down far enough. I'd considered cutting off the rim but the stainless is very thin and floppy without it, something like about 0.7mm I think, so making it taller seems the best way.

The boiler tank is mounted in a ring so its base is actually a bit off the floor; the cut and shut job will be tall enough to be lowered in and still leave the handles proud. This snug fit should allow small batches to be done if I want to, whilst beinng tall it will also let me do bigger ones. I'm thinking it should manage down to 1-corny batches and up to either 3-corny session beers or 2-corny higher gravity ones.

There will now be a loooong break, whilst I buy a TIG welder and find out if I'm any good with it. At least the join in a grain basket won't be as critical as it would be for a boiler or something..

Cheers
Kev

[newelley]

Fantastic posts and pictures! I have to admit that the process is a little over my head but it all looks good to me

good luck with the TIG welding

Newelley

[Kev888]

Thanks!

I'm probably making it seem more complicated than it is - its a failing of mine! When I start the build properly I may begin a new build thread - all my pontificating is getting a bit long winded; starting a build at page 5 seems excessive.

Thanks for the good wishes for the TIG welding; I may need them - since buying the welder, posts on the welding forum have suggested people would avoid trying to weld pots like this, like the plague

Cheers
Kev

[barneey]

Thanks!

I'm probably making it seem more complicated than it is - its a failing of mine! When I start the build properly I may begin a new build thread - all my pontificating is getting a bit long winded; starting a build at page 5 seems excessive.

Thanks for the good wishes for the TIG welding; I may need them - since buying the welder, posts on the welding forum have suggested people would avoid trying to weld pots like this, like the plague

Cheers
Kev

Kev, I wonder if they sell JB weld in 1ltr pots ,

Seriously though hope the build goes according to plan.

Cheers Clive

[Kev888]

heh heh - I suspect theres a very real chance I'll struggle to weld them, but I did get some stainless braizing flux in as an alternative
If 'really' necessary I could have some vertical strengthening/bridging bars inside the pots, if I cut a recess out of the false bottom for them, but I'd prefer not to.

I'm sure the build won't go entirely to plan, but after this much prattling about beforehand I'd hope there won't be too many major unforseens; I guess time will tell.

Time is also fairly pressing, as I'm running out of my favourite beers - I may even be forced to face my highly mediocre attempt at a christmas ginger brew. So an ideal time to delay an already complicated build whilst I learn how to weld, then...

Cheer
Kev

[DeadFall]

Good luck, been following this with interest.

[stu-le-brew]

+1 for the good luck

nothing ventured noting gained

bon chance