American IPA advice

[Barley Water]

I would say your recipe looks good there Legion. You might find that the Willamette gets completely overpowered by the Cascade and Citra but I would give it a try and see what happens. I have not played around with Citra yet but when I make something suitable I'll give it a try. My go-to hops for beers like this are Warrior, Simcoe and Amarillo because they are all low cohumolone hops and I have moderately hard water and I'm always looking to keep the harsh bitterness at a minium. I made a hop bursted American wheat beer that came out pretty well using Warrior, Centenial and Simcoe (mostly because I could source any Amarillo at the time). Next time I do that one I may well substitute Citra for the Simcoe just to see what effect I get. I would also like to try my hand at a wheat IPA but I have a few other beers to make first...too many projects, not enough time or cold storage space.

[critch]

sorry seymour your patently wrong mate.

saying styrians (which there now are quite a few distincly different varieties) are the same as fuggles is like saying a rottwieler and a chihauhau are the same because theyre both dogs.

due to genetic drift, evolution and terroir there is a difference between the dna of english fuggles and bobek, now its very slight, but when you see that a chimps dna is 99% identical to our own you can see what im getting at

fuggles, bobek ,celeia and the rest are different from one another these days......

if you grew bobek in the same hereford field as some fuggles they wouldnt taste the same

[seymour]

sorry seymour your patently wrong mate.

saying styrians (which there now are quite a few distincly different varieties) are the same as fuggles is like saying a rottwieler and a chihauhau are the same because theyre both dogs.

due to genetic drift, evolution and terroir there is a difference between the dna of english fuggles and bobek, now its very slight, but when you see that a chimps dna is 99% identical to our own you can see what im getting at

fuggles, bobek ,celeia and the rest are different from one another these days......

if you grew bobek in the same hereford field as some fuggles they wouldnt taste the same

Thank you, Critch. I wish this hadn't turned into an argument. I agree with your points about genetic, drift, evolution, etc, of course. I also agree that Bobek hops are nothing like Fuggles, no matter where they are grown. But I think we're talking about two different hop cultivars. Bobek (also called "Styrian Golding B" because of the Slovenian connection, and brewing similarities to original Styrian Goldings) is a diploid hybrid between Northern Brewer and a TG seedling of unknown origin. So, obviously it's not even related to Fuggles. I was talking about the original Styrian Goldings which are still available, apart from Bobek.

My only quibble about your evolutionary point is this (which you probably already know, so I don't mean to insult your intelligence) keep in mind named commerical hops cultivars are multiplied through root cuttings, which is asexual reproduction, which means every single plant is an identical genetic clone of the others. In a sense, despite spacing in the field, across acres and across the world, every Bobek for instance, is the exact same plant. Just like every Granny Smith apple tree in the world is a grafted clone of the exact same original tree. Only thus are the expected aroma and flavor characteristics held constant. Any differences in growth habit, essential oil composition, etc, are therefore 100% due to micro climate/soil conditions. Since named commercial hop cultivars are never grown from seed (sexual production) no evolved genetic mutations are passed on to subsequent generations.

Geez, sorry everyone, to have turned a simple American IPA critique into a soap-box.

[critch]

no argument from me dear boy, we're all friends here!

as for the evolutionary point mate that was from a senior man at farams here in the uk, theyve done tons of research on hops, he was the one that told me that styrian goldings do infact now genetically differ from fuggles but it was my mistake to include celeia and bobek in the discussion

good here innit?

[seymour]

no argument from me dear boy, we're all friends here!

as for the evolutionary point mate that was from a senior man at farams here in the uk, theyve done tons of research on hops, he was the one that told me that styrian goldings do infact now genetically differ from fuggles but it was my mistake to include celeia and bobek in the discussion

good here innit?

Absolutely! And I defer to your Farams man, he knows what he's got better than I. Apparently further cross-polination and breeding selection went on in Slovenia throughout the 1900's that isn't well-documented for the rest of us, likely for competitive reasons, etc. Cheers!

[weiht]

To be fair, seymour did say earlier that any differences in aroma/flavor profile are 100% attributable to growing conditions. He was saying its actually a fuggles instead of a goldings, but i guess the purist in me misread that into thinking he said its just fuggles really.

N critch, I'm pissed as hell with the new Styrian A B and C strains thats making it harder to get the original ones. Reason being I ordered a batch of SG and it turned up as celiea and the merchant didnt bother to specify it earlier until I received it. Nothing wrong with more new hops, but its frustrating when they lump it together and sell interchangeably without being specific.

group hug

[legion]

I would say your recipe looks good there Legion. You might find that the Willamette gets completely overpowered by the Cascade and Citra but I would give it a try and see what happens.

I would have gone for Simcoe or Amarillo if I had some. I am expecting the citrusy flavours to dominate but the Williamettes should broaden it out a bit. Just hoping for something very hoppy and tasty.

I have not played around with Citra yet but when I make something suitable I'll give it a try.

I would highly recommend trying Citra hops as my best ever brewed beer which was also the best beer that I have ever tasted (including commerical beers) was made with citra hops for flavour and aroma with Northern brewer for bittering.

[dedken]

Good discussion. I'm a massive fan of Slovenian hops and have recently brewed a Pale Ale @TheKernelBrewery with Aurora, Bobek, and Celeia. It went down a storm, as predicted.
In fact I've started using Aurora in combinations in almost everything I brew from saison through, to IPA, to porter and stout. I'm a bit of an aurora addict I have to say.

My most recent 'slovenian experiment' included Dana, which have the curious aroma of garlic chives....

[seymour]

...included Dana, which have the curious aroma of garlic chives....

In a good way?!

[dedken]

In a good way?!

I guess! They don't seem to have made the beer smell or taste of garlic chives.... but it's still in primary.

[Rookie]

I don't think your flaked corn addition will do anything. At 1.4% any lightening of the body won't be noticeable, and flavour wise, with all those hops you definately wont get any flavours from it.

I've yet to see an American IPA with corn in the recipe.

[Barley Water]

You generally won't see adjucts in American recipes because the homebrewers over here look down their noses at any beer with anything but malted barley, malted wheat etc. The reason for that is because by the 70's, the only beer you could get over here was the frizzy yellow stuff which was loaded with adjucts to lighten the beer up and for economic reasons and of course we couldn't have that. Also early homebrew kits contained alot of corn sugar which produced a beer with a pronounced "twang" so everybody wants to avoid that like the plague.

Back in the day, there was an American IPA which was the grandfather of IPA's over here made by Ballentines. It was high gravity and bitter as hell with a fairly good dose of corn in the grist. They also made the forerunner of the APA which was called Ballentines XXX, I have made a clone of that a couple of times, it's good. When you start to get around 20% corn in the grist you can taste it; I rather like it but it does confuse some judges who think it's DMS so beers made like that don't do all that well in competitions over here. If you would like to make something different you might try doing a ceral mash on some corn grits and throw them into a beer, it works great.

I just came up with a recipe for an English IPA and I am using about 7% flaked corn. Since the stuff is going to have an O.G. of 1.065 (God willing and I don't screw up) I was looking to lighten it up a bit to increase drinkability. I personally like to mess around with adjuncts because I think used correctly you can make some damn good beer with them. All you have to do is get interested in Belgian styles and after a while there is not alot you won't throw into your mashtun.

[Eadweard]

To complicate matters further though Bobek are sold as Styrian goldings they come from a Slovenian breeding programme and are totally unrelated to Fuggles: http://hop.akrom.si/index.php/201109035 ... bobek.html

[legion]

Brewed this on Monday afternoon / evening but had upped the dextrose and added some northern brewer and larger malt due to not enough Columbus and pale malt. But had a nightmare brewday, managed to do my mash and mashout in my buffalo boiler and then it died...Was only a few brews ago that I replaced the thermal fuse and I think its gone again.

Had to do my boil in a 14L stock pot and a 8L pressure cooker pan on my Gas hobs. Did an hour boil for my bittering hops in the 14L pot added half of my 15 min addition 45 mins in whilst doing a 30 minute boil in the pressure cooker and then a further 30 minute boil in both pots to get through all my wort (which included the second 15 min addition).

With the staggered boil by the time I had all the wort in my fermentor it was down to 64c for the 75g 0 minute addition.

The house stank of hops, it cooled overnight pitched a load of US-05 in the morning from my previous brew and by the time I got home from work the airlock is bubbling away nicely and its rather tasty modified recipe below.


Legion Brewery AIPA (Imperial IPA)

Original Gravity (OG): 1.064 (°P): 15.7
Final Gravity (FG): 1.014 (°P): 3.6
Alcohol (ABV): 6.53 %
Colour (SRM): 7.9 (EBC): 15.5
Bitterness (IBU): 65.1 (Average)
Brew Length 23L

82% Pale Malt
7% Dextrose
5% Torrified Wheat
4% Crystal 80
2% Lager Malt

0.9 g/L Columbus (16.5% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil)
5 g/L Northern Brewer (10.3% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil)
1.1 g/L Cascade (6.8% Alpha) @ 15 Minutes (Boil)
1.1 g/L Citra (14.5% Alpha) @ 15 Minutes (Boil)
1.1 g/L Willamette (6.3% Alpha) @ 15 Minutes (Boil)
1.1 g/L Cascade (6.8% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Aroma)
1.1 g/L Citra (14.5% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Aroma)
1.1 g/L Willamette (6.3% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Aroma)
1.1 g/L Cascade (6.8% Alpha) @ 0 Days (Dry Hop)
1.1 g/L Citra (14.5% Alpha) @ 0 Days (Dry Hop)
1.1 g/L Willamette (6.3% Alpha) @ 0 Days (Dry Hop)

Single step Infusion at 65°C for 60 Minutes. Boil for 60 Minutes
Fermented at 20°C with Skimmed US-05
Recipe Generated with BrewMate

[beernsurfing]

I don't think your flaked corn addition will do anything. At 1.4% any lightening of the body won't be noticeable, and flavour wise, with all those hops you definately wont get any flavours from it.

I've yet to see an American IPA with corn in the recipe.

Me either, and I definately don't use it, or sugar in any beers,except big belgians.