Reducing alkalinity using acid.

[Dave S]

Update: I'm quite getting into this now. Still having a little trouble getting the Burton profile right, but other profiles are sorting themselves out nicely. I'm finding it best to adjust the minerals first, (principally gypsum), then once the adjusted profile more or less fits the target profile, add, (or not) acid to get the pH right.

One thing I have noticed is that Martin's and Graham's target profile for Burton water differ wildly. Martin's ideal Calcium level is more than twice Graham's. C'mon chaps, what's it all about?

[kane]

One thing I have noticed is that Martin's and Graham's target profile for Burton water differ wildly. Martin's ideal Calcium level is more than twice Graham's. C'mon chaps, what's it all about?

I'm trying to get to the bottom of this myself (I sort of hijacked the Bru n Water CRS thread ).
If they were both using the same historical records/water reports etc, then surely they should both come out with a result roughly similar?

[keith1664]

I was reading the Bru'n Water water knowledge page last night, apparently the different breweries drew their water from different locations and hence had different profiles. Making a "standard" Burton profile impossible.

https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge

Scroll down to section 3 where he explains it.

[keith1664]

Out of interest Ashley, where did you get your phosphoric acid from? I've done a bit of searching and it doesn't seem to be readily available.

[orlando]

Out of interest Ashley, where did you get your phosphoric acid from? I've done a bit of searching and it doesn't seem to be readily available.

Ebay

[orlando]

I was reading the Bru'n Water water knowledge page last night, apparently the different breweries drew their water from different locations and hence had different profiles. Making a "standard" Burton profile impossible.

https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge

Scroll down to section 3 where he explains it.

Keith is right and not only that, I have seen a brewing record that shows part of the recipe for some Burton brews called for the water to be boiled before it was used for mashing, it also shows an analysis of the water being used too. I think Graham remarks in his book BYOBRA that the idea that brewers didn't play around with their water during the time they established their reputation is very unlikely too.

[boingy]

Messing with the software is fine but have you brewed a beer using the water it recommends? Did it work? Did it make better beer?

[orlando]

This weekend Boingy. Messing about with it has been an important part of getting to grips with this whole area, if nothing else it has forced me to understand (ish still a long way to go) the largest ingredient we use. There are still a number of questions I need answering but in the end your question is pertinent and I think it is time to start using it and putting it to the test. The following claims are what I will be putting to that test:

"The pH of the mash influences a number of factors in brewing including; fermentability, color, clarity, and taste of the wort and beer. A slightly acidic mash pH of between 5.2 and 5.8 (measured at room-temperature) improves the enzymatic processes during mashing. The lower end of that range produces more fermentable wort and thinner body. The lower end of that range also produces better extraction efficiency, lighter color, better hot break formation, and the beer is less prone to form haze. Allowing the mash pH to fall below this lower boundary increases the potential to solubilize excess protein into the wort (De Clerck, 1957). The upper end of that range produces less fermentable wort and more body (Briggs et. al., 1981). Tailoring the mash pH helps a brewer create the wort character desired for the finished beer. In most cases, narrowing the target mash pH range to between 5.3 and 5.5 is recommended."

Stand by your beds

[Dave S]

Out of interest Ashley, where did you get your phosphoric acid from? I've done a bit of searching and it doesn't seem to be readily available.

Brupaks do it and is available from Brew UK and The Home Brew Shop. It is in 75% solution.

[keith1664]

Thanks Dave. I take it the ebay stuff is food grade Ashley?

[orlando]

I've emailed them for the MSDS which they advertise is available, disappointingly so far it has not arrived. It claims "high quality" which means something or nothing. I will post again if/when I receive it. The description on the site is "chemical reagent" which is the grade I have been advised to use but will hopefully know for sure soon.

[Dave S]

I've emailed them for the MSDS which they advertise is available, disappointingly so far it has not arrived. It claims "high quality" which means something or nothing. I will post again if/when I receive it. The description on the site is "chemical reagent" which is the grade I have been advised to use but will hopefully know for sure soon.

I'm gonna go for the Brupaks offering. I have a high degree of confidence that it will be food grade.

EDIT: though I'll be interested in the eBay stuff if it does turn out to be FG. I'll let you be the guinea pig Orlando

[mabrungard]

Update: I'm quite getting into this now. Still having a little trouble getting the Burton profile right, but other profiles are sorting themselves out nicely. I'm finding it best to adjust the minerals first, (principally gypsum), then once the adjusted profile more or less fits the target profile, add, (or not) acid to get the pH right.

One thing I have noticed is that Martin's and Graham's target profile for Burton water differ wildly. Martin's ideal Calcium level is more than twice Graham's. C'mon chaps, what's it all about?

Dave, there are three big differences in the Burton profile that Graham posts and the profile I obtained from Environmental Agency (EA). Calcium, sulfate, and alkalinity are substantially lower in Graham's profile. That is a much milder profile that Graham presents and that agrees with my contention that a true Burton profile may be too mineralized for good brewing outcome. The groundwater information from EA had sulfate concentrations in the 600 to 800 ppm range. That is pretty darn high and I've heard many brewers comment that the beers can be 'sulfury' when using water like that. I do not recommend using a Burton profile such as reported by EA, but it is included in Bru'n Water for historical accuracy. As highlighted in the Water Knowledge section of the Bru'n Water website, dilution of that sulfate-laden deep groundwater with less mineralized water from rainfall and River Trent would have likely occurred when those Burton breweries were in their high production. It appears that Graham has properly toned down the 'Burton' profile to one that is more workable for brewing. Just recognize that it does not agree with current groundwater conditions, but may be a reasonable portrayal of the conditions that may have existed when there was a lot of brewing in the town.

[Dave S]

Update: I'm quite getting into this now. Still having a little trouble getting the Burton profile right, but other profiles are sorting themselves out nicely. I'm finding it best to adjust the minerals first, (principally gypsum), then once the adjusted profile more or less fits the target profile, add, (or not) acid to get the pH right.

One thing I have noticed is that Martin's and Graham's target profile for Burton water differ wildly. Martin's ideal Calcium level is more than twice Graham's. C'mon chaps, what's it all about?

Dave, there are three big differences in the Burton profile that Graham posts and the profile I obtained from Environmental Agency (EA). Calcium, sulfate, and alkalinity are substantially lower in Graham's profile. That is a much milder profile that Graham presents and that agrees with my contention that a true Burton profile may be too mineralized for good brewing outcome. The groundwater information from EA had sulfate concentrations in the 600 to 800 ppm range. That is pretty darn high and I've heard many brewers comment that the beers can be 'sulfury' when using water like that. I do not recommend using a Burton profile such as reported by EA, but it is included in Bru'n Water for historical accuracy. As highlighted in the Water Knowledge section of the Bru'n Water website, dilution of that sulfate-laden deep groundwater with less mineralized water from rainfall and River Trent would have likely occurred when those Burton breweries were in their high production. It appears that Graham has properly toned down the 'Burton' profile to one that is more workable for brewing. Just recognize that it does not agree with current groundwater conditions, but may be a reasonable portrayal of the conditions that may have existed when there was a lot of brewing in the town.

Thanks for that, Martin. I was thinking that the Calcium and sulphate concentrations were pretty off the scale. I think If I were brewing, say a Draught Bass, (which I will be doing in a week or so) I will just use the Pale Ale profile, which is quite close to Graham's Burton profile anyway. I managed to get that to work with no problem. I'll let you know how it turns out.

[boingy]

Interestingly, Brupaks state the acid is "mainly used for yeast washing".