SEYMOUR AUSTRALIAN SPARKLING ALE

[timbo41]

Thanks as always for taking the time to answer Seymour. I rather like the ideas behind invert sugar, particularly as its so easy to do, with pretty much any di saccaharide or poly saccharride chain....if iirc breaks these down into simpler monos. , presumably these will be consumed early given the yeast greater energy to multiply thus more to attack the more complex wort sugars. I think its something worth trying particularly if the beer profile required is fairly dry. I have now started to make a sort of starter....not in the scientific stir plate and vial way....no equipment, but by making a small wort from main batch, cooling quickly while main batch no - chills overnight, and pitchingyeast into that. I don't know if it works but it makes me feel better !!

[seymour]

This beer has been in bottles for a couple weeks, and is getting better and better. A couple educational take-aways, for anyone who cares:

This Joe White Maltings Traditional Pale malt is crazy, crazy malty-sweet. I mean, at the level of CaraPils, Gambrinus ESB Malt, or Pauls Mild Malt, if you're familiar. I've used this Joe White Traditional Pale malt twice, and despite very lengthy mash duration at low temperatures, I only got around 65% efficiency. I almost regret adding crystal malt at all, even though it was only 2.5% of the grainbill. And the body and mouthfeel is still huge, despite the simple sugar which should've thinned it out.

I'm not complaining, the overall effect is like an over-the-top malt-bomb-and-hop-bomb like Stone Arrogant Bastard. Not what I was expecting, but cool in it's own rite. I think it's probably much bolder all around than Coopers Sparkling Ale. I've gotta think the Coopers brewery uses Joe White Australian Pils malt, not this over-the-top-dextrine-sweet Joe White Traditional Pale malt. Wally, or any other Australian members, what say you about that?

Stella/Ella hops are much more powerfully flavoured than I expected too. Definitely in the same ballpark as Galaxy, Vic Secret, Enigma, and other "Down-Under" hops which are all the rage.

[wally]

This beer has been in bottles for a couple weeks, and is getting better and better. A couple educational take-aways, for anyone who cares:

This Joe White Maltings Traditional Pale malt is crazy, crazy malty-sweet. I mean, at the level of CaraPils, Gambrinus ESB Malt, or Pauls Mild Malt, if you're familiar. I've used this Joe White Traditional Pale malt twice, and despite very lengthy mash duration at low temperatures, I only got around 65% efficiency. I almost regret adding crystal malt at all, even though it was only 2.5% of the grainbill. And the body and mouthfeel is still huge, despite the simple sugar which should've thinned it out.

I'm not complaining, the overall effect is like an over-the-top malt-bomb-and-hop-bomb like Stone Arrogant Bastard. Not what I was expecting, but cool in it's own rite. I think it's probably much bolder all around than Coopers Sparkling Ale. I've gotta think the Coopers brewery uses Joe White Australian Pils malt, not this over-the-top-dextrine-sweet Joe White Traditional Pale malt. Wally, or any other Australian members, what say you about that?

Stella/Ella hops are much more powerfully flavoured than I expected too. Definitely in the same ballpark as Galaxy, Vic Secret, Enigma, and other "Down-Under" hops which are all the rage.

Coopers use malt supplied by Joe White (or Cargill Malting as it is called now). The malt is prepared to Coopers specifications, therefore not available for general use.

The plant at Port Adelaide only produces Export Pilsner Malt, with most of it sent to Asia. I'm not sure what the Cavan plant produces as I haven't toured that plant, only the Port Adelaide plant.

The plant at Cavan was previously Adelaide Maltings which was owned by Coopers, but sold to Joe White some time ago.

I don't know which plant supplies Coopers, but I'd bet my left one that they use a pilsner base grain.

Coopers get massive efficiency from their malt as they use a hammer mill and mash press. Proper industrial scale installation these days.

[seymour]

Bump.

My long boil led to noticeable kettle caramelization which led to a rich Oktoberfest-style candy sweetness, which provided a strong malt backbone to support these pungent Stella/Ella hops (as I said above, very similar down-under characteristics like Galaxy, Topaz, Enigma, Vic Secret, etc.) I was warned this Coopers Brewery yeast is very bready and estery, and boy oh boy you guys were right, especially open fermented as I did. It's growing on me, but it's pretty gritty, isn't it? That said, I've noticed it does clear and clean itself up the longer I bottle-condition it.

So, here's how it looks. Pretty close in colour to Coopers Australian Sparkling Ale, it seems.



Here's something really weird:

I get the impression you all have access to Coopers' ales and Coopers kits. But neither are distributed to Missouri, so I'm out of luck. Which leads to the obvious question: How did I get that cool Coopers' footed Pilsner glass?

It was at a wine shop less than a mile from my home...I have no idea why...and no one else would even have a frame of reference for it...but I was thrilled to find it there.

[Clibit]

Are the hops as good as Galaxy? Might try them, when I've worked my way through some of my huge freezer collection...

[seymour]

Are the hops as good as Galaxy? Might try them, when I've worked my way through some of my huge freezer collection...

Well, I'd say they share some family traits, but they are different. I think they have the same rough-around-the-edges bitterness, similar juicy-fruit flavour and aroma, but to me the Stella/Ella have more black peppery Saaz-like essence. Like a high-grav, high-alpha, crazy-hopped Bohemian Pilsener or something?

[PhilB]

Hi Seymour

I hope you don't mind me jumping in on this thread ... nice looking beer, by the way, I've been brewing a beer using some Aussie Topaz hops recently and I'm relieved to see you mention "juicy fruit" several times in this thread, it's got lots of that going on ... anyway, I want to ask about this comment from above ...

... the body and mouthfeel is still huge, despite the simple sugar which should've thinned it out.

... in your previous uses of invert sugar have you always found it's thinned the beer out? ... you see I've been experimenting recently with making some invert sugar and brewing with it, after a comment I'd read in the White and Zainasheff book "Yeast" that suggested that, counter-intuitively, simple sugars can leave a beer tasting more malty ... it seems (and I'm para-phrasing here obviously) yeast are lazy eaters and given the choice between glucose/fructose and maltose or malto-triose, they'll go for the simple sugars first, every time and, like kids gorging themselves on chips(fries) and leaving their vegetables, they may leave the other sugars be, once they've finished the simple stuff ... but it looks, from your response to the outcome of this brew, that if that's what's happened here, it's not something you've experienced in your other uses of invert sugars. Is that right?

Cheers, PhilB

{EDIT: I am talking specifically about invert sugars having this "body-building" effect here, the production of invertase that the yeast have to produce to consume simple sugars like sucrose, apparently keeps the yeast having to work for their food and sets them up to get munching on maltose and malto-triose, so using it will thin the finished beer. Maybe that's how Cooper's would have used simple sugars added their brews, as sucrose, not having been quite so close to the established British brewing sugar manufacturers, churning out tons of invert syrups ]

[Clibit]

Well, I'd say they share some family traits, but they are different. I think they have the same rough-around-the-edges bitterness, similar juicy-fruit flavour and aroma, but to me the Stella/Ella have more black peppery Saaz-like essence. Like a high-grav, high-alpha, crazy-hopped Bohemian Pilsener or something?

Intriguing! Got to be worth a try.

[seymour]

Hi Seymour

I hope you don't mind me jumping in on this thread ... nice looking beer, by the way...

PhilB, me mind? I love when I see your comments on any thread, here at Jim's or elsewhere. Welcome back!

...anyway, I want to ask about this comment from above ...

... the body and mouthfeel is still huge, despite the simple sugar which should've thinned it out.

... in your previous uses of invert sugar have you always found it's thinned the beer out? ... you see I've been experimenting recently with making some invert sugar and brewing with it, after a comment I'd read in the White and Zainasheff book "Yeast" that suggested that, counter-intuitively, simple sugars can leave a beer tasting more malty ... it seems (and I'm para-phrasing here obviously) yeast are lazy eaters and given the choice between glucose/fructose and maltose or malto-triose, they'll go for the simple sugars first, every time and, like kids gorging themselves on chips(fries) and leaving their vegetables, they may leave the other sugars be, once they've finished the simple stuff ... but it looks, from your response to the outcome of this brew, that if that's what's happened here, it's not something you've experienced in your other uses of invert sugars. Is that right?

I am talking specifically about invert sugars having this "body-building" effect here, the production of invertase that the yeast have to produce to consume simple sugars like sucrose, apparently keeps the yeast having to work for their food and sets them up to get munching on maltose and malto-triose, so using it will thin the finished beer. Maybe that's how Cooper's would have used simple sugars added their brews, as sucrose, not having been quite so close to the established British brewing sugar manufacturers, churning out tons of invert syrups

You raise a lot of excellent points and questions. I have to say, the use of "kettle sugars" and their interplay with malt-derived fermentables is still an area of intrigue for me too, and one of the biggest focuses in my recent brewing experiments. I've read the book you mention, Kristen England makes similar arguments, most of which jives with my own experience and other past and present brewing texts. I agree with them to the extent that caramelized simple sugars add complexity, not diminish it, as many homebrew authors erroneously insist. I'm finding that caramelized sugars contribute all kinds of candy sweetness, toffee notes, and fruity, raisiny flavours that I previously believed only come from speciality malts. I should've known better, nearly all historical English ales were brewed with numerous sugars: in the mash tun, in the boil, sometimes throughout fermentation, and to adjust colour, etc, just before delivery too! Those brewers knew what they were doing, and we do them a disservice by pretending that any beer containing simple sugars is necessarily inferior. Yes, I'm even taking on the great Graham with that insinuation.

Even so, I still believe that a brew containing simple sugars will almost always end up with a lighter body and mouthfeel than an otherwise identical all-malt brew. This is what Belgian brewers refer to as "making the beer more digestive." You know what a Belgian Tripel or Quad tastes like: >8% abv, but still light and spritzy like a Pilsener. This would be impossible using a recipe with enough malt to reach that abv level. English Barleywines can go that high, but all-malt ones will be much breadier and possess much fuller body and mouthfeel by comparison. Both can be cloyingly, syrupy sweet, but Belgian ales are seldom as heavy and filling.

This could change, my mind is not entirely made up, but based on what I know now, I believe caramelized simple sugars do not so much add body, but like you said, can have a "body-building effect", as in a perception of residual sweetness but without additional heaviness or actual fullness. Who am I to argue with Chris White about yeast? But it really seems to me that a big healthy yeast population, especially when given the necessary time, keeps churning away through any kind of fermentable maltose, sucrose, glucose, etc until it finishes the job to your desired dryness.

What does everyone else think?

[Goulders]

I brewed with a pro recently who uses sugar in one of his beers for flavour. The sugar he used is expensive compared to malt and it certainly wasn't for cost saving measures. It wasn't an invert but basically like a 20kg sugar cube. Can't remember the make though.

[PhilB]

Hi Seymour

Thanks for that very interesting, considered response ... I've only used my home made invert in one brew so far, in a Jennings Sneck Lifter clone attempt based on the recipe Geordiebrewer posted on here (link) and with these words ...

I believe caramelized simple sugars do not so much add body, but like you said, can have a "body-building effect", as in a perception of residual sweetness but without additional heaviness or actual fullness.

... you're explaining what I'm tasting in it so much better than I could ever have done

It's just that the ferment of that Sneck brew finished a couple of points higher than I'd have expected (at 1.014, from a 1.052 OG) ... but as you say there are all sorts of factors that may have caused that, and one brew isnt enough to come to any conclusions from ... I'm definitely encouraged to keep experimenting though

Cheers, PhilB

[seymour]

Hi Seymour

Thanks for that very interesting, considered response...I'm definitely encouraged to keep experimenting though

Cheers, PhilB

Yeah, good. Me too.

I don't consider this particular brew very informative regarding the use of invert syrup, because the big surprise to me was how outrageously malty sweet this Joe White Traditional Ale Malt is to start with. If I use Joe White Traditional Ale Malt again, I definitely will think twice about adding any crystal malt or additional sources of caramel sweetness whatsoever. It's crazy, crazy dextriny/melanoidy as is.

[seymour]

Intriguing! Got to be worth a try.

Yes, please do. I have to check my notes to be sure, but I don't think I've tasted any other beers with Stella/Ella hops, not commercial nor homebrew, so I'd love to hear what other brewers think of them too.

Cheers!