Increased Diacetyl required

[AnthonyUK]

I would like to replicate the caramel/toffee apple characteristics common in double drop beers which I understand is from increased diacetyl.
Any searches only tend to show the US view which is that diacetyl in any amount is a bad thing but in our English styles it is something I really like.
I thought I'd replicate the double drop method but can anyone give some pointers for the fermentation profile please and which yeast strain would be best to use?

[PhilB]

Hi Anthony

I don't know anything about double dropping ... but I have followed the approach discussed over on that thread (link), managing a temperature profile of pitching at 17C, allowing to rise to 20C, then cooling back to 17C after some of the fermentation has done, and managed to get some diacetyl impression in a TTL clone

Cheers, PhilB

[AnthonyUK]

Thanks PhilB.
That thread is useful regarding the fermentation profile which makes sense e.g. avoiding any form of d-rest.
With double drop you transfer the wort 24-48 hrs after fermentation has started to remove most of the trub and aerate the wort again which increases diacetyl production.
It will be a balance to get it right but if overdone I believe it does fade over time.

[PhilB]

Hi Anthony

That thread is useful regarding the fermentation profile which makes sense e.g. avoiding any form of d-rest.

... yes, but AIUI, it's not just avoiding a d-rest that's important there ... the pitching cool and allowing to rise, is part of the process of encouraging the yeast to multiply incredibly quickly, throwing (more of) those (by-product) flavours in the process ... I suppose with German wheat beer yeasts or funky Belgian yeasts we'd call that "stressing the yeast" and do it to encourage them to throw the flavours we want, whether banana, clove or "funk" ... perhaps dropping the fermenting wort off the trub and re-aerating it, in a "double drop" style, does something similar ... and if you're going to incorporate that into your fermentation routine you may want to include a pitch low and rise step before you do, too

It will be a balance to get it right but if overdone I believe it does fade over time.

... like the guys on that thread experienced, I got a lot of acetaldehyde (strong green apples flavour) from following that temperature profile ... so much so that I couldn't taste anything but at packaging stage ... but primed and left to carbonate/warm condition, that sorted itself out (well I guess the yeast sorted it for me, really ) and left a beer with a hint of diacetyl ... you may need to be prepared to face similar problems, but good luck with it. I'm very interested to see what you do and how it works out for you

Cheers, PhilB

[MTW]

Pitch low with WY1469 (West Yorkshire) and you'll have it. I tried it once and got masses of popcorn taste throughout fermentation, though a diacetyl rest shifted much of it at the end... I didn't want it for that beer.

[YeastWhisperer]

Brewlab F-40 throws toffee apple if pitched low.

[AnthonyUK]

Cheers all.
I'll have a look at what yeast my LHBS has in.
F-40 is not one I have seen though.

[johnmac]

"Pitched low" is that low temperature, or low cell count?

[MTW]

"Pitched low" is that low temperature, or low cell count?

I meant low cell count.