Thanks a lot for everyone's reply, they're very helpful!
I'll definitely aim to improve my log keeping too, and take more notes.
Guy - "Has this always been a problem or have you recently changed your grain or your equipment? What rate do you run the wort from the mash tun? I aim for between 1/2 and 1 litre a minute, after recirculating about three litres to help settle the grain on the false bottom of the tun. Do you fly or batch sparge?"
- I've tended to make more darker beers like stouts, but I think with pale beers, it has been an issue. I batch sparge. I know I did oversparge on my last brew, which could have released too many tannins possibly. I didn't recirculate the wort last time, I will definitely do that next time.
Jocky -
"- Residual unconverted starch. Make sure that your mash is as complete as possible. Get the temperature and pH in the right zone and don't rush it. You should have mostly clear (with a small amount of particulate matter) wort out of the mash tun."
- Could doing a starch test with the finished beer be useful here, do you think, for seeing if there was any unconverted starch?
"- Calcium deficient wort (rare unless you are brewing with very 'soft' water)"
That's very interesting you note that! My water is 'very soft' according to united utilities, I will hopefully get a proper water test done soon!
My calcium avg is 18.7 ppm according to UU.
Reading : https://www.beeradvocate.com/community/ ... sh.223451/ someone posts a quote from Palmer, which says
"The calcium levels in the water need to be high enough to carry sufficient levels through the boil and fermentation. A range of 50-200 ppm in the water for the mash is recommended."
Filtering beer
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Jocky
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Re: Filtering beer
Honestly I've never done a conversion test myself. For me clarity of wort is a much a guide as I've needed - the liquid on the top of your mash should go quite clear when left undisturbed - it's a sign that the starches have been converted. After a little recirculation you should be able to get very clear wort out of the mash tun too.
For calcium level it's well worth getting a proper water report done (as well as buying the salifert alkalinity test kit to get an ongoing understanding of alkalinity levels of your water and make you aware of sudden changes in water source). The fix will be quite simple, but just throwing in some gypsum without understanding the composition of your water is a bit like playing darts in the dark - you're as likely to cause some damage as you are to hit the board.
A municipal water report is little better in this regard as it doesn't have all the info you need and will contain an average of values when in reality you can change water sources over time (i.e. it's still like playing darts in the dark but now one of the regulars has told you that the dart board is on one wall for 2 days a week, a different one for another 2 days etc).
For calcium level it's well worth getting a proper water report done (as well as buying the salifert alkalinity test kit to get an ongoing understanding of alkalinity levels of your water and make you aware of sudden changes in water source). The fix will be quite simple, but just throwing in some gypsum without understanding the composition of your water is a bit like playing darts in the dark - you're as likely to cause some damage as you are to hit the board.
A municipal water report is little better in this regard as it doesn't have all the info you need and will contain an average of values when in reality you can change water sources over time (i.e. it's still like playing darts in the dark but now one of the regulars has told you that the dart board is on one wall for 2 days a week, a different one for another 2 days etc).
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.
Re: Filtering beer
You'll definitely want to bump up your calcium for ales at least, I have even less Ca in my water than you and notice a big difference although it depends on the yeast too
also if you are using natural irish moss, it can help to rehydrate it first for an hour before putting it into the boil. I don't think it gets fully hydrated when just chucking it in dry for the last fifteen minutes, so it's less effective. If you use it in a processed tablet form like protofloc/whirlfloc then it doesn't need rehydrating obviously
also if you are using natural irish moss, it can help to rehydrate it first for an hour before putting it into the boil. I don't think it gets fully hydrated when just chucking it in dry for the last fifteen minutes, so it's less effective. If you use it in a processed tablet form like protofloc/whirlfloc then it doesn't need rehydrating obviously
Re: Filtering beer
I will definitely look into treating my water now, and getting a proper analysis done.
I just did an iodine test:
Left pot - ~3ml of water + drop of iodine
Right pot - ~3ml of beer + drop of iodine
Top right pot - beer
3ml of just beer in image below:
I'm not sure from that if there's starch or not too be honest in the beer. Maybe with iodine it has gone slightly reddish, so maybe there is some starch?
I was looking at http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Iodine_Test
I just did an iodine test:
Left pot - ~3ml of water + drop of iodine
Right pot - ~3ml of beer + drop of iodine
Top right pot - beer
3ml of just beer in image below:
I'm not sure from that if there's starch or not too be honest in the beer. Maybe with iodine it has gone slightly reddish, so maybe there is some starch?
I was looking at http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Iodine_Test
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Eric
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Re: Filtering beer
This is an iodine test taken earlier this year, probably, after 45 minutes from mashing in and I considered sufficient starch had been converted to sugars to not be concerned of any excess being transferred to the boiler.
This is a picture of an unfiltered, unfined beer about 2 or 3 weeks after brewday, it could possibly be from the same wort as seen in the test above, but can't be sure. It would have been mashed for 90 minutes and fly sparged taking another 90 minutes to 2 hours, transferred to the boiler with as little debris as practical. That wort would not be bright, but it would be clear with just a very minor haze when examined at close range. It would be then boiled for 90 minutes, a good rolling boil and a part of a protafloc tablet added with about 10 minutes from the end. It would be chilled in maybe 20 to 30 minutes in the boiler to maybe 20C and run off after the cold break formed through a simple filter into the boiler when it would be clear by eye. Then fermented with a relcaimed top fermenting yeast of several generations in my own hands when after a week it would be transferred without finings or chilling into a cheap plastic barrel, very likely from Wilko, but with an S30 valve in the cap. It would be tasted after a day or two to monitor progress and frequently such brews would be on tap after about 10 days although they will generally improve for several weeks. Typically my beers last between 8 and 20 weeks. Some have lasted more than a year, but the oldest on hand in cask at present was brewed on April 1st, no fool.
I wish you luck with your filtering, get it right and you will solve your problems in one go. It's what American brewers did from 1880 onward when refigeration and centrifugal filtration became practical to use. However, it will be done after the last stage when the problem might be at the very first, your water.
When I didn't treat my water, my beers could never clear unless they were left somewhere cold for months, even with all else sorted. It could be done with various additives and or filtering and many commercial enterprises do this now, more than a hundred years after America, but 5 to 10 minutes work at the start and about 20P of acid and salts sorts it for me.
This is a picture of an unfiltered, unfined beer about 2 or 3 weeks after brewday, it could possibly be from the same wort as seen in the test above, but can't be sure. It would have been mashed for 90 minutes and fly sparged taking another 90 minutes to 2 hours, transferred to the boiler with as little debris as practical. That wort would not be bright, but it would be clear with just a very minor haze when examined at close range. It would be then boiled for 90 minutes, a good rolling boil and a part of a protafloc tablet added with about 10 minutes from the end. It would be chilled in maybe 20 to 30 minutes in the boiler to maybe 20C and run off after the cold break formed through a simple filter into the boiler when it would be clear by eye. Then fermented with a relcaimed top fermenting yeast of several generations in my own hands when after a week it would be transferred without finings or chilling into a cheap plastic barrel, very likely from Wilko, but with an S30 valve in the cap. It would be tasted after a day or two to monitor progress and frequently such brews would be on tap after about 10 days although they will generally improve for several weeks. Typically my beers last between 8 and 20 weeks. Some have lasted more than a year, but the oldest on hand in cask at present was brewed on April 1st, no fool.
I wish you luck with your filtering, get it right and you will solve your problems in one go. It's what American brewers did from 1880 onward when refigeration and centrifugal filtration became practical to use. However, it will be done after the last stage when the problem might be at the very first, your water.
When I didn't treat my water, my beers could never clear unless they were left somewhere cold for months, even with all else sorted. It could be done with various additives and or filtering and many commercial enterprises do this now, more than a hundred years after America, but 5 to 10 minutes work at the start and about 20P of acid and salts sorts it for me.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.
Re: Filtering beer
Cheers Eric, that beer looks awesome. One thing I'm also wondering, I know some of the hop particulate etc manages to get into my fermenter.
When you say ' run off after the cold break formed ' - how do you know that has happened? Do you do any whirlpooling in the boiler too?
What kind of hop filter do you use?
That's also very interesting with respect to water treatment!
When you say ' run off after the cold break formed ' - how do you know that has happened? Do you do any whirlpooling in the boiler too?
What kind of hop filter do you use?
That's also very interesting with respect to water treatment!
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Jocky
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Re: Filtering beer
Cold break forms when the wort gets cold. Leave your cold wort to sit until it is still and when you come back you'll be able to see proteins coagulating under sparklingly clear wort. Leave it all for a while longer and the proteins will drop, allowing you to siphon crystal clear wort from the top.
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.
Re: Filtering beer
Ah interesting, so I use an immersion chiller, after chilling to the right temp of say 20C, I should take out the coil, then just let it sit for a while till it clears?
How long does that take you roughly?
How long does that take you roughly?
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Jocky
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Re: Filtering beer
Yes. Just remove the IC and let it sit (ideally with a lid on!). If you can do an hour then that's good.
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.
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Eric
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Re: Filtering beer
Yes, Jocky has given the detail needed.
My filter is very simple, just a matrix of 15mm copper pipe push fit together with tees and bends, half cut through every cm or so with a Junior Hacksaw. I don't whirlpool but am part way through a major rebuild and will incorporate that facility as we seem to be being forced into using pellet hops which might be suitable for later hopping, but spoil runoff from the boiler. It's going to take a bit of thought and will probably have two or more filter setups to maintain the set standard and can see it needing suitabe testing before it goes into use.
Haze from hops should be considered as a separate subject. Heavily hopped beers will generally have some amount of haze, but normally not anywhere near as much as I often see. If hops are a constant cause of haze it might be necessary to ask yourself why make so many hoppy brews as most breweries make none.
My filter is very simple, just a matrix of 15mm copper pipe push fit together with tees and bends, half cut through every cm or so with a Junior Hacksaw. I don't whirlpool but am part way through a major rebuild and will incorporate that facility as we seem to be being forced into using pellet hops which might be suitable for later hopping, but spoil runoff from the boiler. It's going to take a bit of thought and will probably have two or more filter setups to maintain the set standard and can see it needing suitabe testing before it goes into use.
Haze from hops should be considered as a separate subject. Heavily hopped beers will generally have some amount of haze, but normally not anywhere near as much as I often see. If hops are a constant cause of haze it might be necessary to ask yourself why make so many hoppy brews as most breweries make none.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.
Re: Filtering beer
Awesome I'll do at least an hour then I'm just looking at the DX hop filter, on brewbuilder, which looks awesome, I might have to get that, rather than my bazooka, which keeps clogging.
I haven't actually made especially hoppy beers to be honest, sticking to things like pales and stouts mainly.
I'll do at least an hour then I'm just looking at the DX hop filter, on brewbuilder, which looks awesome, I might have to get that, rather than my bazooka, which keeps clogging.I haven't actually made especially hoppy beers to be honest, sticking to things like pales and stouts mainly.
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Jocky
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Re: Filtering beer
The DX clogs with pellet hops and break. I had one. It's brilliant with leaf, but not pellet.
Aside from a bag/spider I've not found an effective pellet filter, thus my current procedure of letting it sit and siphoning from the top, or even just letting through a little via a side outlet to a tap.
Aside from a bag/spider I've not found an effective pellet filter, thus my current procedure of letting it sit and siphoning from the top, or even just letting through a little via a side outlet to a tap.
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.
Re: Filtering beer
Ah, that's interesting about pellets and that filter. I haven't actually used pellets before too be honest.
Re: Filtering beer
I just had an idea to create two simple worts, using DME (after I've got my water testing results). One treated to be high in calcium, and one with my standard soft water.
I was reading this, which is very interesting, about how calcium aids the formation of calcium oxalate
https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/k ... m-oxalate/
"By insuring there is enough calcium in upstream processing then one can insure calcium oxalate forms and precipitates in tanks and not in kegs and bottles where it can create nucleation sites."
I was reading this, which is very interesting, about how calcium aids the formation of calcium oxalate
https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/k ... m-oxalate/
"By insuring there is enough calcium in upstream processing then one can insure calcium oxalate forms and precipitates in tanks and not in kegs and bottles where it can create nucleation sites."
Re: Filtering beer
Some pretty thorough answers to your questions in this thread but something that also helped me with clarity was stopping being greedy with transfers from e.g. fermenter to keg, if you take all that time with the stuff outlined in this thread and then drag crap in at the end it seems a waste of a lot of effort for little beer.