Stopping too soon
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SteveD
I've been laid up for two days with a wonderful sickness/shits bug which has fortunately now worn off. Right where were we...oblivious wrote:Not sure if this has been pointed out all ready, was the wort aerated enough?
......I think so.SteveD wrote:Oxygenated by running wort over paddle to create a shower, plus bubbled air in with fishtank pump, for about 2 hrs.
I'm planning to get to The Farnborough brew shop tomorrow to get the ingredients for "Fallback Ale" to be brewed Saturday- a lowish gravity hop accented pale ale - to be ready for 27th March. While there I'll pick up what I need to kick start the porter. It's gradually tailed off to a bubble every 38 secs or so.
How so, when you boiled off the alcohol? I was planning on either making up a starter with spraymalt, or using some fresh wort from Saturday's brewing. I suppose using the porter wort is best though.Daab wrote:The beer is still strong enough to build a starter, boil the alcohol off from a sample, rehydrate, mix the two and couple of days later you'll have healthy yeasties that are acclimatised to an alcoholic enviroment.
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mysterio
My money is on underpitching or underaeration. If using liquid yeast, I would probably use a very well aerated 2 or 3 litre starter for a beer of that gravity - liquid yeast tends to be much more oxygen hungry. Remember that the aeration of the starter is just as important as the aeration of the actual wort. Dry yeast has sterols built in and a plenty high cell count so I'm surprised it's struggling - I never have attenuation problems with dry yeast. It's very unlikely that the yeast is struggling with the alcohol level IMO.
EDIT : Just read that you used Nottingham so disregard most of that
EDIT : Just read that you used Nottingham so disregard most of that
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SteveD
Started on phase one of brew recovery. Having chatted with Di at Farnborough - stir in some yeast-vit nutrient and give it a rouse. If nowt happens, phase 2 - make up a yeast starter with the wine yeast she gave me and hit it with that. Meanwhile however, gravity had dropped from 28 to about 24, but was slowing down. Tastes very nice. It will get to 17-18. It will.
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SteveD
Well it's a few days along and I've tried two approaches.
(1) Add 1/2 tsp Yeast-vit nutrient and rouse gently. Wait a couple of days...no change. Steady bubbling at 30 secs a bubble
(2) Rehydrate a high alcohol tolerant wine yeast, then start in wort, wait until going well, and pitch with a 1/4 tsp more nutrient, stir very gently. No change, bubble rate same, then after a few days, slowly drops to 1 per 45 secs. Gravity still around 1024-1026
Now what?
I've got some dry beer enzyme, but I'm not keen to add it if it converts all the dextrins to maltose. If that all ferments out it would be too dry. Because the gravity is fairly high, I don't think that it's all due to dextrins. There must be some maltose left. I think it's a yeast stoppage problem rather than it just having run out of easily fermentable sugar and so the DBE might not make any difference.
What do you think?
(1) Add 1/2 tsp Yeast-vit nutrient and rouse gently. Wait a couple of days...no change. Steady bubbling at 30 secs a bubble
(2) Rehydrate a high alcohol tolerant wine yeast, then start in wort, wait until going well, and pitch with a 1/4 tsp more nutrient, stir very gently. No change, bubble rate same, then after a few days, slowly drops to 1 per 45 secs. Gravity still around 1024-1026
Now what?
I've got some dry beer enzyme, but I'm not keen to add it if it converts all the dextrins to maltose. If that all ferments out it would be too dry. Because the gravity is fairly high, I don't think that it's all due to dextrins. There must be some maltose left. I think it's a yeast stoppage problem rather than it just having run out of easily fermentable sugar and so the DBE might not make any difference.What do you think?
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SteveD
I spoke with one of the Durden Park guys today. He said that as it was still showing signs of activity, and was under lock, to stick it in a quiet corner and leave it alone to sort itself out. During the normal maturation time for a beer like that, it would drop down to a resonable gravity. Some sweetness is needed anyway to balance the roast, hops, and alcohol. He wasn't keen on DBE - if it finishes dry, it would be unbalanced
So, I'm in a quandry wether to try restarting it again with even more 'Conan The Barbarian' yeast to play the short game, or to just leave it and play the long game.
It's between 24 & 26 at the moment. If it finishes at 20 or under, I'd call it a draw.
So, I'm in a quandry wether to try restarting it again with even more 'Conan The Barbarian' yeast to play the short game, or to just leave it and play the long game.
It's between 24 & 26 at the moment. If it finishes at 20 or under, I'd call it a draw.
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SteveD
Ok, I'm going to go off and get some re-start type yeast from Farnborough, 2 or 3 packs and go for broke. The bubble rate is now 70secs so it's gradually slowing down. I'll rehydrate and start the yeast in some wort as before, but add about 3 oz of sugar to the bulk wort when I pitch it, and we'll see.
I asked Mike Carter (Durden Pk) wether the grist makeup might make for an unusually high level of dextrins causing not so much a stuck ferment but one that has fermented out as far as it will easily go anyway - he said it was a possibility. We'd know if that was the case if the ferment sprang to life after adding sugar, then ground to a halt again at G24-26
I asked Mike Carter (Durden Pk) wether the grist makeup might make for an unusually high level of dextrins causing not so much a stuck ferment but one that has fermented out as far as it will easily go anyway - he said it was a possibility. We'd know if that was the case if the ferment sprang to life after adding sugar, then ground to a halt again at G24-26
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shiny beast
Just finished reading through the tread, so here's my 10 pence worth.
Most of the dried ale yeasts available aren't true top fermenters. Therefor, when you rack off from the primary you're going to leave alot of yeast behind. It's better to leave it in the primary untill it's near finished.
I've also read that making a starter for dried yeast is a big no no. By the time its pitched into the bulk wort, it's 'shot it's bolt' so to speak. Just sprinkle it on top.
Most of the dried ale yeasts available aren't true top fermenters. Therefor, when you rack off from the primary you're going to leave alot of yeast behind. It's better to leave it in the primary untill it's near finished.
I've also read that making a starter for dried yeast is a big no no. By the time its pitched into the bulk wort, it's 'shot it's bolt' so to speak. Just sprinkle it on top.
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SteveD
I think Nottingham is, and the brew ground to a halt in the primary to start with. It was a case of racked off because it had stopped, not stopped because it was racked off.shiny beast wrote:Just finished reading through the tread, so here's my 10 pence worth.
Most of the dried ale yeasts available aren't true top fermenters. Therefor, when you rack off from the primary you're going to leave alot of yeast behind. It's better to leave it in the primary untill it's near finished.
That would be in complete variance with Danstar's instructions. If you look at their website, they are pretty specific about how you should handle the yeast. Besides, I didn't make a starter in the traditional sense of the word, working up the yeast over a day or two, but rather rehydrated in water then introduced wort progressively to get it working, acclimatised to the temperature, and medium, and then pitched. Given that I always double dose with dried yeast, and the packs are 11g, culturing it up over a couple of days would be unnecessary anyway.shiny beast wrote:I've also read that making a starter for dried yeast is a big no no. By the time its pitched into the bulk wort, it's 'shot it's bolt' so to speak. Just sprinkle it on top.
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SteveD
Ok, decision made. It's going into barrel tomorrow, with some bottled in screw stopper quarts. I'm getting the feeling that if the nutrient and macho yeast did nothing then nothing will, and that it's just at near terminal gravity. It doesn't taste as sweet as G24 would suggest making me think there are high levels of dextrin present. Full bodied with a touch of sweetness to balance the roasty smoky bitterness is fine by me 
It's still blooping along at a very slow rate which ties in with slow dextrin fermentation. The good thing about the quarts is I can keep an eye on any excessive pressure build up. Over a few months maturation it should slowly drop anyway.
It's still blooping along at a very slow rate which ties in with slow dextrin fermentation. The good thing about the quarts is I can keep an eye on any excessive pressure build up. Over a few months maturation it should slowly drop anyway.-
Scooby
Re: Stopping too soon
Glad you have come to an almost satisfactory conclusion SD
What would be concerning me is the very first line of your post:
) were they all brewed with a new batch of malt, clutching a straws here but there must be a answer 
What would be concerning me is the very first line of your post:
What are you going to do on you next brew? Is there any common factor in the brews that may have caused the early stop? It does look like a slow dextrin fermentation, could that have been the same on all three? (have you checked the accuracy of your thermometerSteveD wrote:This is the third fermentation in a row that's slowing down and appears to be stopping too soon.
) were they all brewed with a new batch of malt, clutching a straws here but there must be a answer -
SteveD
The spirit thermometer I have is one degree or so under true value at lower temps, and about 2 degrees over at 100c. I bought a digital thermometer the other day, and will be using that - it's somewhat more accurate.
Different malt on each brew. I buy what I need at the time. Highest mash temperature would have been about 67c. Average for the brews is 65-66c. Bang in the middle.
My latest brew fermented down normally and finished roughly where it should after 5 days in primary - 1 degree over quarter gravity. To me that's fine. Of the three that finished higher I put down the first two to either lack of nutrient and/or dodgy aeration. The third, I put down to high levels of dextrins.
Different malt on each brew. I buy what I need at the time. Highest mash temperature would have been about 67c. Average for the brews is 65-66c. Bang in the middle.
My latest brew fermented down normally and finished roughly where it should after 5 days in primary - 1 degree over quarter gravity. To me that's fine. Of the three that finished higher I put down the first two to either lack of nutrient and/or dodgy aeration. The third, I put down to high levels of dextrins.
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SteveD
I agree about spirit thermometers, which is why I make sure mash is well stirred before taking the temperature, plus I take it in two or three places. I find most varition is at the end of the mash where the sides and corners are invariably cooler than the centre.
As to the yeast stoppage, underpitching may have been a factor with the 1070 porter. I doubt it was aeration - it was aerated for hours. I used 2x 11g Nottingham sachets where 4 might have been a better idea. On the 1050 brews I also used 2x 11g sachets which shouldn't have been a problem as that is my usual pitching rate.
I looked back through my brewing log and early stoppage seems to be an anomaly on these later brews, previous brews have almost all behaved well. (I'm on gyle 60 at the moment). The most consistently reliable yeast I've used in terms of attenuation to quarter gravity,or very near to it, is.......drum roll....Gervin English Ale. Every time I've used it it's behaved impeccably. I believe that Danstar Nottingham is the same strain.
With the Porter I'm thinking it's dextrins. There was a lot of medium roasted malt in that - 30% Pale Amber, 28% Brown Malt. Reasearch on old beers using a lot of such grains suggests they didn't attenuate that far, with final gravities from 1020 up to the 50's for some of the heaviest. You could say that may have been yeast performance as well, but contemporary old IPA's were very well attenuated, so it wasn't that they were using crap yeast.
Mike Carter from Durden Park also pointed out that old beers often stop short, that this was normal, and that my recipe was pretty much along old beer lines. Imagine a modern brew with say 40% crystal malt - I don't think that would attenuate to quarter gravity somehow.
Still, it's in Barrel and bottle now and tastes raaather nice. I feel I'll be brewing more of the same
As to the yeast stoppage, underpitching may have been a factor with the 1070 porter. I doubt it was aeration - it was aerated for hours. I used 2x 11g Nottingham sachets where 4 might have been a better idea. On the 1050 brews I also used 2x 11g sachets which shouldn't have been a problem as that is my usual pitching rate.
I looked back through my brewing log and early stoppage seems to be an anomaly on these later brews, previous brews have almost all behaved well. (I'm on gyle 60 at the moment). The most consistently reliable yeast I've used in terms of attenuation to quarter gravity,or very near to it, is.......drum roll....Gervin English Ale. Every time I've used it it's behaved impeccably. I believe that Danstar Nottingham is the same strain.
With the Porter I'm thinking it's dextrins. There was a lot of medium roasted malt in that - 30% Pale Amber, 28% Brown Malt. Reasearch on old beers using a lot of such grains suggests they didn't attenuate that far, with final gravities from 1020 up to the 50's for some of the heaviest. You could say that may have been yeast performance as well, but contemporary old IPA's were very well attenuated, so it wasn't that they were using crap yeast.
Mike Carter from Durden Park also pointed out that old beers often stop short, that this was normal, and that my recipe was pretty much along old beer lines. Imagine a modern brew with say 40% crystal malt - I don't think that would attenuate to quarter gravity somehow.
Still, it's in Barrel and bottle now and tastes raaather nice. I feel I'll be brewing more of the same
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Gurgeh