Bru'n water Questions and observations...

(That's water to the rest of us!) Beer is about 95% water, so if you want to discuss water treatment, filtering etc this is the place to do it!
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orlando
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Re: Bru'n water Questions and observations...

Post by orlando » Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:46 pm

Eric wrote: Enjoy the brew. By any chance, will you be using sulphuric acid from Murphy's to get your required sulphate levels?
No. I use phosphoric to reduce alkalinity and then adjust the salts till I get the right levels that I'm after, today for example I used a lot of Gypsum as I wanted to push the sulphate up to 300 and it meant rowing back on the phosphoric to keep the pH in range. Calcium is up to Murphy's approved level for Pale Ale's but the chloride is a lot less. I haven't pushed the ratio this high before so something of an experiment; bit nervous as this beer is destined for the public at a home brew festival :? .
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Re: Bru'n water Questions and observations...

Post by Eric » Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:02 pm

Ah well, thanks for that and the best of British.
My last brew using H2SO4 to drop alkalinity by 210 to 30mg/l CaCO3 boosted sulphate by 201 to 332 while the residual chloride was then but 36mg/l with the Calcium total still under 200. I was using acid from Murphy and while it did the job, it was no thanks to the figures they supplied and just wanted to warn you. Phosphoric acid seems such a long way round to me. Anyway, will be very interested to learn the results.
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Re: Bru'n water Questions and observations...

Post by simmyb » Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:20 pm

Thanks for all your replies!

Eric, I quite agree that we are brewers not chemists and when it comes down to it, it's all about brewing the beer you like rather than what someone says is 'correct'. However, as Martin says, it would take many years of varying batches of a similar style to try and nail down what works for me. So I am just trying to get a bit of a shortcut by getting advice from various sources, but it's a bit tricky when that advice varies so much! Maybe there is no substitute for experience...

Whether or not you agree with the set profiles in Bru'n water, it really does seem like a very powerful tool (nice one Martin!) to help you achieve the beer you prefer, but you need to know what water profile that requires in order to get there! Orlando, what do you base your chosen water profiles on? Advice from elsewhere or more on personal experience?

It would be interesting to know what water treatments various breweries use especially London breweries like Fullers who have similar water to me and make beers I enjoy. I have recently been drinking a lot of beers from The Kernel brewery in east London and while I like some beers more than others, I am always bowled over by the clarity and layers of flavour they have. Maybe its more about their other processes but it would be interesting to see what they do.

I guess the only way to progress for sure is brew more and drink more and that is no bad thing! Cheers!
Primary : AG138 Amarillo Pale Ale
Conditioning : AG137 Mosaic Pale Ale
Drinking: AG131 London Bitter, AG132 Yorkshire Bitter, AG133 Guinnish, AG134 Witbier, AG135 Challenger Pale Ale, AG136 Kveik IPA,
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Re: Bru'n water Questions and observations...

Post by mabrungard » Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:46 am

Recognize that a primitive water treatment method is pre-boiling the water and decanting off of the sediment. In many English waters, they have modest levels of sulfate and chloride that are well suited to bitters and pales. The main deficiency with those waters is the elevated alkalinity and pre-boiling can significantly reduce that issue. The point with this is that the practice of adding more sulfate and/or chloride via mineral or acid additions that add to the total mineralization of the brewing liquor is NOT necessarily the way it was done in years past. I find that a modest degree of mineralization can produce a more drinkable and pleasant beer.
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Re: Bru'n water Questions and observations...

Post by simmyb » Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:35 am

mabrungard wrote: ....The point with this is that the practice of adding more sulfate and/or chloride via mineral or acid additions that add to the total mineralization of the brewing liquor is NOT necessarily the way it was done in years past. I find that a modest degree of mineralization can produce a more drinkable and pleasant beer.
Do you mean a modest degree of added mineralization or overall mineralization in the finished water? I guess you mean overall.

Also, it would be great if you could talk through your thoughts on the degree of calcium required as the Bru'n Water profiles tend to have a much lower figure than other sources I have read.

Cheers, Simon
Primary : AG138 Amarillo Pale Ale
Conditioning : AG137 Mosaic Pale Ale
Drinking: AG131 London Bitter, AG132 Yorkshire Bitter, AG133 Guinnish, AG134 Witbier, AG135 Challenger Pale Ale, AG136 Kveik IPA,
Planning: Perle faux lager

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Re: Bru'n water Questions and observations...

Post by orlando » Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:24 am

simmyb wrote:Thanks for all your replies!

Eric, I quite agree that we are brewers not chemists and when it comes down to it, it's all about brewing the beer you like rather than what someone says is 'correct'. However, as Martin says, it would take many years of varying batches of a similar style to try and nail down what works for me. So I am just trying to get a bit of a shortcut by getting advice from various sources, but it's a bit tricky when that advice varies so much! Maybe there is no substitute for experience...
Unfortunately, or fortunately depending upon how you view it, beer is very forgiving and can be made in many ways, part of its charm and challenge I suppose. It is this that leads to so much variation in approach and as they can nearly all "work" it's no surprise that there are fierce defences of the "only way". In the end there is no substitute for experience as it is this that feeds back to you. You have a fondness for Kernel beers so you now have to find out what they do and see if you can get close, someone somewhere will tell you it's not quite right, just smile and carry on brewing it your way.
Whether or not you agree with the set profiles in Bru'n water, it really does seem like a very powerful tool (nice one Martin!) to help you achieve the beer you prefer, but you need to know what water profile that requires in order to get there! Orlando, what do you base your chosen water profiles on? Advice from elsewhere or more on personal experience?
It's a combination of both. What beers do I enjoy, what advice is given to achieve that, what happens when I do? Like you I have water that is close to the London profile, consequently I can make dark beers that I'm really proud of, love to drink and would put in front of anyone. Pales are more of a challenge and I would say I'm still experimenting, but getting close and that's all about experience, experience is the fine tuner.
It would be interesting to know what water treatments various breweries use especially London breweries like Fullers who have similar water to me and make beers I enjoy. I have recently been drinking a lot of beers from The Kernel brewery in east London and while I like some beers more than others, I am always bowled over by the clarity and layers of flavour they have. Maybe its more about their other processes but it would be interesting to see what they do.

I guess the only way to progress for sure is brew more and drink more and that is no bad thing! Cheers!
Meet other brewers, drink their beer and ask them how they did it, no substitute for that if you want a faster inside track. Join the CBA, create your own or join an existing brew club, read everything, trawl the web. There are a lot of paths but brewing beer regularly is ultimately the key; as you say no bad thing :D .
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

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Conditioning:
Drinking: Southwold Again,

Up Next: John Barleycorn (Barley Wine)
Planning: Winter drinking Beer

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Re: Bru'n water Questions and observations...

Post by simmyb » Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:06 pm

Well, my bottle of phosphoric acid arrived today and the Murphy's analysis of my tap water should be here imminently (BTW, anyone know how long their reply takes roughly?) so let the experimentation begin... Again, thanks for your responses! =D>
Primary : AG138 Amarillo Pale Ale
Conditioning : AG137 Mosaic Pale Ale
Drinking: AG131 London Bitter, AG132 Yorkshire Bitter, AG133 Guinnish, AG134 Witbier, AG135 Challenger Pale Ale, AG136 Kveik IPA,
Planning: Perle faux lager

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Re: Bru'n water Questions and observations...

Post by Eric » Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:24 pm

simmyb wrote:Well, my bottle of phosphoric acid arrived today and the Murphy's analysis of my tap water should be here imminently (BTW, anyone know how long their reply takes roughly?) so let the experimentation begin... Again, thanks for your responses! =D>
Good luck, I hope you get the results you desire.

Might I ask if or how you previously measured your water's alkalinity, what you found, how much you removed using CRS and if you tested afterward for confirmation?

I know it took Murphy's Laboratory from August 20th to September 4th to thank me for "pointing out" incorrect labeling on one of their products. The manager in that email wrote "I am very busy and haven’t got lots of time to invest in this matter.", so I've yet to receive a response to my findings in relation to that product's performance in comparison to their published data. When did you send your sample?
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Re: Bru'n water Questions and observations...

Post by simmyb » Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:32 pm

I measured using the Salifert kit getting pretty consistant results of about 210 ppm. I then used CRS to reduce down to a level in line with guidelines from Brupaks depending on the style of beer and then adding calcium using DLS again to Brupaks guidelines.

I sent my sample in on Monday, so perhaps I shouldn’t hold my breath...

I have to say that I am very pleased with the beer I have made so far, they are so much better than the kits I had made previously. I am only 9 brews into my all grain career so barely scratched the surface, but when you taste how good the beer you can make is, even when your brew day is a bit off, you realise how good it COULD be. I enjoy the beer I have made so far, but when I compare it to my favorite beers it just seems to lack a bit of clarity or depth of flavour? It could be for any number of reasons within my process of course, but water is what I’m focusing on at the moment. Well, for this week anyway.... :D

Cheers, Simon
Primary : AG138 Amarillo Pale Ale
Conditioning : AG137 Mosaic Pale Ale
Drinking: AG131 London Bitter, AG132 Yorkshire Bitter, AG133 Guinnish, AG134 Witbier, AG135 Challenger Pale Ale, AG136 Kveik IPA,
Planning: Perle faux lager

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Re: Bru'n water Questions and observations...

Post by Eric » Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:28 am

simmyb wrote:I measured using the Salifert kit getting pretty consistant results of about 210 ppm. I then used CRS to reduce down to a level in line with guidelines from Brupaks depending on the style of beer and then adding calcium using DLS again to Brupaks guidelines.

I sent my sample in on Monday, so perhaps I shouldn’t hold my breath...

I have to say that I am very pleased with the beer I have made so far, they are so much better than the kits I had made previously. I am only 9 brews into my all grain career so barely scratched the surface, but when you taste how good the beer you can make is, even when your brew day is a bit off, you realise how good it COULD be. I enjoy the beer I have made so far, but when I compare it to my favorite beers it just seems to lack a bit of clarity or depth of flavour? It could be for any number of reasons within my process of course, but water is what I’m focusing on at the moment. Well, for this week anyway.... :D

Cheers, Simon
Well you are well and truly on the right tracks with water treatment if you have already sorted alkalinity with water at that level.

I'll stick my neck out here and now and qualify that statement.
If you have just done 9 AG brews and have control of alkalinity by measuring and controling its level using CRS, most improvements, including those of clarity and body will come not from water treatment, but from brewing technique. Water treatment has lots to offer and CRS does not suit everybody's palate, but it is but one aspect of brewing.
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Re: Bru'n water Questions and observations...

Post by simmyb » Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:43 am

When I said clarity, I meant in terms of flavour rather than turbidity, thats not a problem. I am also looking at all other aspects of my processes along with the water treatment, and at 9 brews in I appreciate there are probably many other things I need to improve, its just that as water treatment can be so technical it has my interest piqued for the moment!

Cheers, Simon
Primary : AG138 Amarillo Pale Ale
Conditioning : AG137 Mosaic Pale Ale
Drinking: AG131 London Bitter, AG132 Yorkshire Bitter, AG133 Guinnish, AG134 Witbier, AG135 Challenger Pale Ale, AG136 Kveik IPA,
Planning: Perle faux lager

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Re: Bru'n water Questions and observations...

Post by Eric » Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:09 pm

mabrungard wrote: I find that a modest degree of mineralization can produce a more drinkable and pleasant beer.
Martin, have you a sincere belief that your palate matches better that of the typical real ale drinker in the British Isles than that of beer drinkers of Northern America and Central Europe?
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

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