Reducing alkalinity using acid.

[sllimeel]

There are a number of users now (show yourselves, I'd love to know how many).

I am one. Just brewed my first beer with the spreadsheet, it'sconditioning at the moment, so taste testing will have to wait. I went down the dilution with distilled water and CRS route on this first experiment and the ferment was fast for me...5 days.

I need to get a PH probe for my next brew so that i can see how close to the calculated PH's the spreadsheet is. All in all i have high hopes for improvements in my beers. Will be watching the thread for feedback views on brew "n"water... or do we start a seperate thread for feedback?

[orlando]

Will be watching the thread for feedback views on brew "n"water... or do we start a seperate thread for feedback?

If we keep this one then those that have marked it as a topic of interest will continue to get the updates, what I will do, if I can is edit the subject to reflect the calculator.

[Aleman]

It will be interesting to compare the Bru 'n' water results with my very simple spreadsheet . . . I'm hitting pH 5.3 with mine, so it'll be an interesting comparison.

[orlando]

It will be interesting to compare the Bru 'n' water results with my very simple spreadsheet . . . I'm hitting pH 5.3 with mine, so it'll be an interesting comparison.

This is the sort of thing I had in mind, real world examples of comparisons between other calculators and the Brun' water one. I've only come across one other that includes a calculation of acid to reduce alkalinity (the forum favourite compiled by Graham doesn't do this) on the Brewer's Friend website but found it way too clunky compared to Brun' Water. Does anybody know of any others?

[Dave S]

I just got my analysis report back from Murphy's and the alkalinity is reported at 165. This is in contrast to 195 from the Salifert estimation. This will account for my mash pH being lower than the calculated values.

Brewing this weekend so we'll see.

[WallyBrew]

I just got my analysis report back from Murphy's and the alkalinity is reported at 165. This is in contrast to 195 from the Salifert estimation. This will account for my mash pH being lower than the calculated values.

Brewing this weekend so we'll see.

From what you have written it would appear you do an alkalinity test and thats it. You then treat the water.

Far better is to do the test then reduce the alkalinity by about 80% of the the amount you wanted to and test again. If all is well add the additional acid to reduce to final value AND CHECK AGAIN. It may be time consuming but the test is cheap.

[mabrungard]

I just got my analysis report back from Murphy's and the alkalinity is reported at 165. This is in contrast to 195 from the Salifert estimation. This will account for my mash pH being lower than the calculated values.

Brewing this weekend so we'll see.

Dave, how many drops difference would it be with the Salifert kit to have reported a 165 ppm result. Maybe the result is within the accuracy of the kit? If not, your result is troubling since many brewers rely on that result to guide their acid additions. Is the kit old?

[Dave S]

I just got my analysis report back from Murphy's and the alkalinity is reported at 165. This is in contrast to 195 from the Salifert estimation. This will account for my mash pH being lower than the calculated values.

Brewing this weekend so we'll see.

Dave, how many drops difference would it be with the Salifert kit to have reported a 165 ppm result. Maybe the result is within the accuracy of the kit? If not, your result is troubling since many brewers rely on that result to guide their acid additions. Is the kit old?

From memory it's around 4 or 5 drops difference. I have to say that my mash pH values on the basis of 195 alk. are not a million miles away from the calculated ones - maybe 5.32 real against 5.4 calculated. The kit is not old - at least not to me. Don't know how long the supplier had it.

Also, I haven't done the Salifert test for a few brews. It is possible my water's changed slightly.

[oz11]

I would urge you to test alkalinity each time you brew. It tends not to be constant and can fluctuate wildly, especially if you live in an area that *can* be supplied from more than one source.

[keith1664]

A little help if you would, I now have my copy of the spreadsheet and my water report from Murphy's and I'm having difficulties getting my ions to balance.

Water report says ph 7.11, Nitrate 29.6ppm, Calcium 108ppm, Magnesium 6ppm, Chloride 58.58ppm, Sulphate 58.2ppm and alkalinity as 186 CaCo3.

Inputting these gives me a mismatch of 1.17 meq/L and the Nitrate box goes orange?

Now the report from Murphy's doesn't give me a reading for Sodium and checking the Anglian Water report shows it varies from 24.8-177mg/L with an average of 48.1, is balancing simply a matter of picking a value of sodium to suit?
Of the other "balancing" elements only potassium at 4.8mg/L makes any appreciable difference.

Any ideas gratefully recieved!

[orlando]

A little help if you would, I now have my copy of the spreadsheet and my water report from Murphy's and I'm having difficulties getting my ions to balance.

Water report says ph 7.11, Nitrate 29.6ppm, Calcium 108ppm, Magnesium 6ppm, Chloride 58.58ppm, Sulphate 58.2ppm and alkalinity as 186 CaCo3.

Inputting these gives me a mismatch of 1.17 meq/L and the Nitrate box goes orange?

Now the report from Murphy's doesn't give me a reading for Sodium and checking the Anglian Water report shows it varies from 24.8-177mg/L with an average of 48.1, is balancing simply a matter of picking a value of sodium to suit?
Of the other "balancing" elements only potassium at 4.8mg/L makes any appreciable difference.

Any ideas gratefully recieved!

You are looking for a balance of less than .5 and I know with my water report there is a very slight difference in the balance (.36) of the cations/anIons. My sodium is 20 which is close to the average so I would adjust that figure till you get it below .5, I asked Paul Taylor about why there was no sodium report, this was his reply "On the same note we don’t test for sodium (presently) as there is no need. Sodium mainly comes from salt and even if we add salt to a porter or stout you would only ever measure sodium for its calorific value.". He doesn't worry about potassium either citing similar reasons, they are only trace elements and just not that important. He feels water treatment is way too over complicated. Calcium, chloride and magnesium are the most important for him along with the sulphate chloride ratio. He is pretty dismissive of water board reports because of their lack of precision (average figures!) and of course the changes over time. If anyone is going to seriously use Martin's calculator I would say a proper analysis is vital.

Martin follows the thread so if anything is too way out I'm sure he will chip in. As for nitrate that is nothing to worry about mine is 30 and it's a function of where we live, being largely agricultural, this county is plagued by fertiliser run off into the water courses. The level is not dangerous but it can make the webbing on your feet itch from time to time . My potassium is at 2, so a little surprising there is a difference there. The only other surprise for me with your report is my alkalinity is a lot higher at 262, what is your total hardness as caco3?

[keith1664]

I'm at work at the moment so can't be sure but isn't it 1.2 x the alkalinity so around 220. Testing with a salifert kit before each brew I've noticed quite a drop over the last few months, it has been as high as 270.

[WallyBrew]

I'm at work at the moment so can't be sure but isn't it 1.2 x the alkalinity so around 220. Testing with a salifert kit before each brew I've noticed quite a drop over the last few months, it has been as high as 270.

It is calculated from the sum of calcium and magnesium

convert your magnesium to its equivalent as calcium - 6 X 40 / 24 = 10

add this to your 108 calcium to get 118 convert to calcium carbonate 118 X 100 / 40 = 295

It has nothing whatsoever to do with alkalinity

[keith1664]

Ok thanks, I still have some learning to do.

[orlando]

I'm at work at the moment so can't be sure but isn't it 1.2 x the alkalinity so around 220. Testing with a salifert kit before each brew I've noticed quite a drop over the last few months, it has been as high as 270.

It is calculated from the sum of calcium and magnesium

convert your magnesium to its equivalent as calcium - 6 X 40 / 24 = 10

add this to your 108 calcium to get 118 convert to calcium carbonate 118 X 100 / 40 = 295

It has nothing whatsoever to do with alkalinity

Much lower than mine which is 362