Hop Steeping - a debate

[DaveH]

Hmmmm......how many more replies from Bristolian members are we going to get on this thread i wonder??? Does it REALLY matter in the great scheme of things who is right and who is wrong? Surely, if yourself and your peers are happy with the product produced (mitigating the 'risks' in the way that you deem fit, and works for you) then that's all that matters?? Especially as has been stated that home brewing is nothing like commercial brewing?

One thing this thread has proved is that opinions are like a**holes - everyone has one!

[soupdragon]

I can't comment on most of the stuff that's just been posted, way over my head.

All I know is that, if I brew a particular way and get a given level of hop flavour and aroma that I find pleasing, I'll continue to do it.
If there are other ( more efficient ) methods to extract hop flavour and aroma that people can confirm work in the home brew environment then I'll try them out.
I'll be honest at this point and say that the biggest hit I've ever managed to get from hops is the one time I dry hopped. Will be trying it again with my next brew, different malt grist and hops. So if the overall effect is as positive and the beers I'm brewing are suited to it, I'll keep doing it.
My previous hop steeps at 80c have only been for about 10-15 mins before resuming cooling. With the beer I have conditioning now, I left them for 40 mins so I'll be better informed myself soon enough

Cheers Tom

[alikocho]

Hmmmm......how many more replies from Bristolian members are we going to get on this thread i wonder??? Does it REALLY matter in the great scheme of things who is right and who is wrong? Surely, if yourself and your peers are happy with the product produced (mitigating the 'risks' in the way that you deem fit, and works for you) then that's all that matters?? Especially as has been stated that home brewing is nothing like commercial brewing?

One thing this thread has proved is that opinions are like a**holes - everyone has one!

Does the geographic location of posters tell us something? Maybe...And then how many are from Yorkshire, Lancashire, London, Derbyshire, Kent, Essex? And is there a significant statistical correlation with attitudes towards this debate?

And yes, in the grand scheme of things, right and wrong does matter in so far as I object to the propagation of misinformation and half-truths. But as I said before, in the end you do what you do and you get what you get.

[DaveH]

And yes, in the grand scheme of things, right and wrong does matter in so far as I object to the propagation of misinformation and half-truths. But as I said before, in the end you do what you do and you get what you get.

Who died and made you king? Talk about an ARROGANT attitude.............. BJCP judge or not, sounds like a huge amount of you-know-what waving to me.............

Jeez.

[Dr. Dextrin]

And what is being missed here is the temperature at which SMM is released from the malt and converts to DMS (and how much remains in the wort). Despite some apparent conflicting views, the science actually seems to agree that it is at boiling (or very near) that DMS is boiled off.

Actually, if you have a dilute aqueous solution of anything and it isn't actually boiling, it's going to take a long time before the concentration of the solute changes much.

That applies to driving off DMS, but it also applies to hop oils, if they are in solution. Dissolved hop oils will probably be lost quickly by boiling, but they won't "flash off" at 120-140F, or any temperature below the boiling point of the solution. However, if the oils haven't dissolved and float to the surface, then they can easily evaporate at (or near) their own boiling point.

That's why I think the issue of how readily the oils dissolve is quite relevant because once they are dissolved they are more effectively trapped in the wort. I'd be interested if anyone knows about the chemistry involved. The video linked earlier in this thread hints that some unspecified chemicals behave "like soaps" to allow the oils to mix with the water. I'm familiar with the action of soaps, but don't know what chemicals are involved and how they might be affected by temperature. Casual observation of most soaps and detergents, though, makes be think they work a lot better at higher temperatures.

[Capn Ahab]

Hmmmm......how many more replies from Bristolian members are we going to get on this thread i wonder??? Does it REALLY matter in the great scheme of things who is right and who is wrong? Surely, if yourself and your peers are happy with the product produced (mitigating the 'risks' in the way that you deem fit, and works for you) then that's all that matters?? Especially as has been stated that home brewing is nothing like commercial brewing?

One thing this thread has proved is that opinions are like a**holes - everyone has one!

We're all adult enough to have a debate if we want, and if it gets lively none of us will go home crying. If it challenges how some people view the process, then great! Those not interested can leave it to the grown ups.

[DaveH]

Hmmmm......how many more replies from Bristolian members are we going to get on this thread i wonder??? Does it REALLY matter in the great scheme of things who is right and who is wrong? Surely, if yourself and your peers are happy with the product produced (mitigating the 'risks' in the way that you deem fit, and works for you) then that's all that matters?? Especially as has been stated that home brewing is nothing like commercial brewing?

One thing this thread has proved is that opinions are like a**holes - everyone has one!

We're all adult enough to have a debate if we want, and if it gets lively none of us will go home crying. If it challenges how some people view the process, then great! Those not interested can leave it to the grown ups.

Dont let the handle hit ya in the arse on the way out then!!!

[alikocho]

And yes, in the grand scheme of things, right and wrong does matter in so far as I object to the propagation of misinformation and half-truths. But as I said before, in the end you do what you do and you get what you get.

Who died and made you king? Talk about an ARROGANT attitude.............. BJCP judge or not, sounds like a huge amount of you-know-what waving to me.............

Jeez.

Wow, you really have an issue with the Bristolians on this thread, don't you.

Nobody made me king. Do I have to be king to have an opinion on what I personally think matters? Note that I used the words "in so far", which do rather suggest that this isn't absolute and I used the first person indicating this was my standpoint. Let's lay off the insults, huh? It's not very productive.

Does right and wrong matter to whether someone can make beer and be happy with the results? No.

As I said before, in the end you do what you do and you get what you get.

[alikocho]

Dissolved hop oils will probably be lost quickly by boiling, but they won't "flash off" at 120-140F, or any temperature below the boiling point of the solution. However, if the oils haven't dissolved and float to the surface, then they can easily evaporate at (or near) their own boiling point.

That's why I think the issue of how readily the oils dissolve is quite relevant because once they are dissolved they are more effectively trapped in the wort. I'd be interested if anyone knows about the chemistry involved.

Now this one is new to me, and is interesting. But on the basis of this, adding hops straight after flameout into non-boiling wort (i.e. below the boiling point of the solution) won't degrade the oils or impact the aroma. Which rather negates the purpose of dropping the temperature to 80 before steeping for aroma purposes (although the isomerization issue pointed out by Aleman would still be valid).

[Dr. Dextrin]

Dissolved hop oils will probably be lost quickly by boiling, but they won't "flash off" at 120-140F, or any temperature below the boiling point of the solution. However, if the oils haven't dissolved and float to the surface, then they can easily evaporate at (or near) their own boiling point.

That's why I think the issue of how readily the oils dissolve is quite relevant because once they are dissolved they are more effectively trapped in the wort. I'd be interested if anyone knows about the chemistry involved.

Now this one is new to me, and is interesting. But on the basis of this, adding hops straight after flameout into non-boiling wort (i.e. below the boiling point of the solution) won't degrade the oils or impact the aroma. Which rather negates the purpose of dropping the temperature to 80 before steeping for aroma purposes (although the isomerization issue pointed out by Aleman would still be valid).

Indeed, I do add the hops at flame-out, not at 80C, and get good results. I think others do the same and just live with the extra isomerisation. However, my justification is more that it works, rather than that I fully understand what's going on.

[gregorach]

Dissolved hop oils will probably be lost quickly by boiling, but they won't "flash off" at 120-140F, or any temperature below the boiling point of the solution. However, if the oils haven't dissolved and float to the surface, then they can easily evaporate at (or near) their own boiling point.

That's why I think the issue of how readily the oils dissolve is quite relevant because once they are dissolved they are more effectively trapped in the wort. I'd be interested if anyone knows about the chemistry involved.

Now this one is new to me, and is interesting. But on the basis of this, adding hops straight after flameout into non-boiling wort (i.e. below the boiling point of the solution) won't degrade the oils or impact the aroma. Which rather negates the purpose of dropping the temperature to 80 before steeping for aroma purposes (although the isomerization issue pointed out by Aleman would still be valid).

Well, the received wisdom that I've always heard (second or third hand, but from normally reliable sources) is that a temperature between 70 and 80 degrees is optimum for the extraction of hop aroma compounds. Exactly why this should be has never been adequately explained to me, but I would guess that it's mainly to prevent further isomerisation.

[weiht]

Dissolved hop oils will probably be lost quickly by boiling, but they won't "flash off" at 120-140F, or any temperature below the boiling point of the solution. However, if the oils haven't dissolved and float to the surface, then they can easily evaporate at (or near) their own boiling point.

That's why I think the issue of how readily the oils dissolve is quite relevant because once they are dissolved they are more effectively trapped in the wort. I'd be interested if anyone knows about the chemistry involved.

Now this one is new to me, and is interesting. But on the basis of this, adding hops straight after flameout into non-boiling wort (i.e. below the boiling point of the solution) won't degrade the oils or impact the aroma. Which rather negates the purpose of dropping the temperature to 80 before steeping for aroma purposes (although the isomerization issue pointed out by Aleman would still be valid).

I believe the reasons some of us practise steeping at 80c was lesser isomerisation of alpha acids vs adding hops at flame out. Reasons being the amount of utilisation even at temperature of 90c and above, and just because it stops boiling doesnt mean the hops stop isomerising. So, its to get as much aroma and flavour without much bitterness for alpha acids. Another reason was that tea and coffee are brewed at about 80c to bring out the aromatcis.

Also on your point that Stone and Russian River are the most hop forward beers, I cant agree more BUT its due to their insane DRY HOP regime instead of their late kettle additions. Pliney goes through 4 hop additions for a month, and I believe you are aware of this probably better than any of us.

Capn - U said the people u talk to mentioned that Jamil had to adjust his process to fit the commercial brewing, BUT he did mention on CYBI that u can scale down the commercial to homebrew and clone the beers, BUT u cant scale up the homebrew and clone it at the commercial level without making necessary changes.

In fact its a matter of brewing to ur system. I can brew and get the beers i like in my current system, but i may not be able to replicate it with yours. I'll go one step further to say that i will have problems brewing consistent beers if i change my kettle of mashtun. Heck, I may even not be able to brew the same beer twice without any changes!!!

Like I mentioned, some of us here practise 80c was because we didnt like the additional level of bitterness (Quite a bit if u add lots of FO hops), and find that at 80c the isomerisation is lower and also lesser oil is driven off as compared to flame out. I think it also makes sense from ideas borrowed from tea making? Sure u can steep it lower at 50c like some argue, but the risk that for infection and dms is greater, plus I believe that u need a certain amount of heat to bring out the aroma of the hops.

If u say u are not getting enough aroma from 80c, then I suggest try adding more hops!!! U've got to understand ur system and processes, and if u need to use more than TOO BAD. If ur mash and brewhouse efficiency is 70% and u want to hit 80% but cant, then use more grains!!! Likewise, if u cant get enough hops than add MORE... U want hoppiness, then be prepared to ADD them and when u think ur done, ADD MORE

[dcq1974]

Hi All
Just to add a few bits of info to this interesting debate. The boiling points (at 760 mm Hg or our atmospheric pressure) of what I consider to be the most siginificant and pungent "aroma" compounds (Terpenoid compounds and their derivatives) of hops are as follows:

Myrcene 166 degrees C
Humulene 166 degrees C
Linalool 194 degrees C
Geraniol 229 degrees C
Caryophyllene 256 degrees C
Farnesene 260 degrees C
Selinene 260 degrees C

So although there will be losses of these important aroma compounds for sure, it may be actually less than you think at say an 80 degrees C steep. I always as a Flavour Chemist think also in terms of "polarity" and hence "solubility" of chemicals in their "solvent" enviroment (water in this case). These terpenes are very non polar (and hence very oil soluble) and their solubility will generally also increase in water as the temperature increases. Certainly they will be less soluble in 20 degrees C water than 80 degrees C.
This does not take into account the odour threshold values of these compounds (the smallest amount you need to be able to smell them) and the fact that we all have potentially different threshold levels we can detect them at. Some people can be anosmic (smell blind) to certain materials!

[boingy]

I'm mostly enjoying this discussion but I've come to the conclusion that hops are, in fact, magical and thus cannot fully analysed by mere science.

Sounds like we should have a giant forum experiment to try a few of the different options and see if we can conclude anything in practice.

[alikocho]

+1 on brewing to YOUR system, not someone elses. And to "use more hops."

And yes, I know very well the Stone and Russian River dry hop regimes (and it's not uncommon for me to dry hop a 5G batch with several hundred grams of hops). And the results. As I understand it though, the purpose of the Pliny regime is to layer the hop aroma, and the flameout hops also add a layer.