CO2 generator

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Hogarth
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CO2 generator

Post by Hogarth » Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:15 am

Further to this, I thought I'd post some pictures of this experiment. Comments, suggestions and withering scorn all welcome. :lol:

Basically it's a way of maintaining pressure in a king keg without using a CO2 cylinder. You carbonate the beer as usual by adding sugar. When you start drinking it, you mix water, sugar and yeast together in a separate container, and use the CO2 from the fermentation to keep the keg pressurized. I borrowed the idea from our friends who like to grow strange plants in their wardrobes. They use this method to provide a regular supply of CO2 to the plants.

Onto the pics. In the jug is 150g of sugar. On the right is some yeasty dregs collected from the bottom of a finished keg.
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Mixed together and add warm water to the halfway mark. (It's a three-litre bottle.)
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A length of 3/8" beerline is attached to the bottle cap with Araldite. I put the airlock on just to make sure that CO2 was being produced. Fermentation began in a couple of hours.
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When the bottle was full of CO2 and all the air had been displaced, I hooked it up and let it pressurize. Hopefully you can work out from the picture what happens where -- apologies for the spaghetti junction. At the moment I've got two taps and one pressure gauge, but two pressure gauges and one tap would be more sensible.
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The bottle pressurizes very rapidly. At the moment it's at about 20psi; I can't tell exactly because it's gone off the top of the scale. (A heftier pressure gauge is on its way from ebay.) Hopefully the pressure won't go too high, though. Ideally I want to produce a nice slow fermentation that keeps pace with my drinking. Keeping the bottle inside the kegerator at 13°C should slow it down, as should the build-up of CO2 in the sugar mix.

Anyway, it's been going for a couple of days now, and so far so good. Progress reports to come. As to the advantages of this system over a gas cylinder ... let me get back to you. :lol:

Dr. Dextrin

Re: CO2 generator

Post by Dr. Dextrin » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:49 am

That's quite neat. But isn't 20 psi a bit high for serving beer? I can't quite see what you've got on your beer tap, but I get quite a froth from mine with only about 3 psi.

Manx Guy

Re: CO2 generator

Post by Manx Guy » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:57 am

You shouldn't have....

Now SWMBO is going to throttle me for sure...

This looks like a fun experiment!

I'll be searching for beerline and JG fittings on fleabay....

One question: How did you connect the gas to the top of the KK? Looks like you didn't use the S30 connections... (?)

:)

Guy
8)

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Hogarth
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Re: CO2 generator

Post by Hogarth » Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:10 pm

Thanks guys.
Dr. Dextrin wrote:That's quite neat. But isn't 20 psi a bit high for serving beer? I can't quite see what you've got on your beer tap, but I get quite a froth from mine with only about 3 psi.
The bottle is at 20psi, the keg is at 6psi. Sorry, I should have made that clear. I keep the tap closed between the bottle and the keg except when I need to repressurize the keg.

To solve the problem of frothing I use three metres of beer line attached to the drum tap on the keg, with a dalex tap at the other end.
Manx Guy wrote:
One question: How did you connect the gas to the top of the KK? Looks like you didn't use the S30 connections... (?)
It's an air hose connector from Halfords screwed into a hole in the lid, with a tube slid over it. I put it on originally to take a pressure gauge. To be honest a John Guest bulkhead connector would be better.

Dr. Dextrin

Re: CO2 generator

Post by Dr. Dextrin » Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:03 pm

Good stuff. =D> So you have about 1.5 litres of CO2 at 20 psi that you can let into the keg after you've drawn a pint. By my reckoning, that gives you 5 litres of CO2 at your serving pressure of 6 psi, which should be good for a night's drinking.

So the two problems to be solved are: 1) how to keep the fermentation going slowly and steadily enough to last for a while, and 2) how to stop the fermentation bottle exploding.

I guess you could always couple several bottles together to provide a bigger CO2 reservoir. Or how about a slow drip feed of sugar solution into the fermentation? Maybe you could even control the sugar using the pressure in the bottle, so it's self-adjusting? Of course, you'd need to do that using a bit of tube and some sticky tape, or it'd be cheating!

Just some wild ideas, you understand. :)

WishboneBrewery
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Re: CO2 generator

Post by WishboneBrewery » Fri Jul 02, 2010 7:20 pm

Try Vinegar & Backing Soda ;)

Trunky

:)

Post by Trunky » Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:04 pm

:)
Last edited by Trunky on Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

haz66

Re: CO2 generator

Post by haz66 » Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:50 pm

I like this idea :D
I just need to win the beer engine on Ebay and i`m sorted

Dr. Dextrin

Re: CO2 generator

Post by Dr. Dextrin » Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:22 am

Sorry, complete rubbish in my post above about the volume of beer delivered as I forgot to include atmospheric pressure. :oops:

The pressure in the bottle is about 35 psi (including 15 psi atmospheric), so 1.5 litres expands to 2.5 litres at the serving pressure of 21 psi. The increase in volume is therefore a less impressive 1 litre, which is how much beer it will deliver.

That's roughly equivalent to about one quarter of a sparklets bulb (assuming I've got it right this time). Still useful, but probably only if the fermentation can be kept going for quite a while.

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Hogarth
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Re: CO2 generator

Post by Hogarth » Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:42 pm

Ah, but by now it's risen to 30psig, which means I can have three and half pints today... Oh boy. :lol:

In fact, for the amount I drink, it has created more than enough gas so far. As you say, it's a question of whether the fermentation will continue. There are all sorts of factors that could affect it -- temperature, pressure, CO2 dissolving into the sugar solution. But theoretically, if my calculations are correct, the 150g of sugar I used should give me enough CO2 to last until the end of the keg, since all I need to do is create 23 litres of CO2 at 6PSI to replace the beer. This is (very roughly) the same amount of CO2 that was needed to carbonate the beer in the first place, which was achieved with only 60g of sugar.

That's if my calculations are correct, as I say. Always a big If, that. Of course, if I need more CO2 in a hurry I can always try pdtnc's idea of vinegar and baking soda. :shock:

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Re: CO2 generator

Post by Hogarth » Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:00 pm

I thought I'd report back to the committee about this experiment.

Basic result: it works surprisingly well. It took me about a month to finish the keg, and the bottle supplied me with CO2 to the very end. Keeping the bottle inside the kegerator at 13°C produced a nice steady fermentation. I kept the beer at 6psi, and sometimes the pressure in the bottle would build up to around 50psi before I needed more CO2, but the bottle coped fine with this.

I've calculated that it would cost me £2 per annum to keep my beer carbonated, using this method. 8)

The only issue is that the CO2 has a bit of a taste to it. I noticed this when I used the rig to carbonate a bottle of water:

Image

... and water tasted a bit weird. It was a sort of musty taste, quite difficult to describe. It wasn't very strong, and you probably wouldn't notice it in your beer. But it made me wonder if CO2 produced by fermentation (of any sort) always has a taste to it. If so, it would mean that natural carbonation and forced carbonation are not identical in their effect. More investigations to follow... :boff:

sparky Paul

Re: CO2 generator

Post by sparky Paul » Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:56 pm

Pure CO2 is completely flavourless and odourless. However, the water vapour and alcohol vapours, and the microbes and other bits carried along with the moisture, are probably not. :wink:

CO2 from bottles will be clean and virtually dry.

Subsonic

Re: CO2 generator

Post by Subsonic » Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:26 pm

Well I have to say that things like this keep me interested in the forum. Hogarth, although I do have kegs and gas and allsorts - your idea is brilliant. Lots of potential there, carbon filter for the gas? Keep up the good experiments! Subsonic. Edit - I used to make petrol rockets from fizzy pop bottles (don't ask) and they could maintain 50psi no problem.

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