Spray ball and cleaning fluid?

[Kev888]

I was thinking of making some sort of plastic ball spray head to clean my boiler and 'supposedly' forthcoming (cue snow storm) plastic conical, to make Cleaning In Situ easier.

My plan was to pump bleach solution around (for <20 mins as there are stainless parts). But I've not used a spray-ball before and both types of vessel tend to end up with dried on crud stuck around their walls and top, so not sure how effective its likely to be.

Does anyone know if you need high powered jets and/or a more powerful cleaning fluid to be effective? If so perhaps I should be thinking of some sort of pre-wash with a power washer or something like that? Not that I have one of thgose to try, either at the mo.

Thanks,
Kev

[maxashton]

I would use a dedicated CIP type cleaner for this sort of thing.

Two that immediately spring to mind are Brupaks Bruclean and Five Star PBW.

I think that kind of CIP cleaning system usually works on full immersion, if I'm not mistaken, but I don't see why a high pressure jet system wouldn't work.

It works OK for kegs.

[Kev888]

Thanks very much, I'd completely forgotten that PBW was developed for that! Probably comes from my fixation on cheapo household chemicals, but if it saves all the aggro of cleaning big/heavy vessels it could well be worth the cost and effort of buying it.

I believe PBW is percarbonate based and by coincidence I was just recently thinking of trying some percarbonate & soda chrystal mix (here) which would be much cheaper - though I don't know what else PBW has in so it may be a false economy. Graham also suggested dishwasher powder may be worth more research too - I wasn't thinking of CIP/CIS at the time I posted that, but I guess thats essentially what a dishwasher does - with low pressure sprays in fact (Doh!).

Perhaps the key think here is to use something which doesn't attack HDPE or stainless and then I can just leave it spraying until its clean, without worrying about contact times. I could also make some sort of metal spray arm or something then too, without it dissolving into nothingness.

Cheers
Kev

[RajBoab]

I was looking at a forum somewhere that was discussing the contents of Five Star's PBW. Can't remember where.

Seem to remember that it's composed of Sodium Metasilicate and Sodium Percarbonate (oxy cleaner). It was suggested that if you mix it in a ration of 2:1 you'd get a pretty good approximation.

Stuart

[Kev888]

Ah there is a bit more to it then - thanks for the info. I did a search on this and John Palmer seems to agree with you. I guess thats reassuring really, as PBW seems to be about twice the cost of percarbonate in the strength Palmer suggests. It still seems like £1 worth of PBW would make about 5gallons though, so not excessive at all if I can spray it about. Less appealing if I can't though, as it'd cost about £6 a pop to completely fill my FV or boiler. Sadly I'm no chemist though and I've no idea where I'd get sodium metasilicate, so not sure if there's much benefit to mixing anything similar myself.

Just been doing some very rough calculations, and I think a bulk-pack dishwasher-powder based solution would be about 2/3rds the price of percarbonate solution (and so quite a bit cheaper than PBW); its clearly meant for spray cleaning so maybe I'll look at trying that as well. I don't recall any warnings against use on stainless, but all the ones I'm familiar with have fragrances and stuff added which is less ideal.

Cheers
Kev

[Gricey]

Did you get anywhere with this? I see that google shopping links to a few places, fancy doing the maths?

[Kev888]

I've not yet sorted out any spraying balls/arms or anything (I had 'flu recently and all my stuff is outside in the freezing garage which sets me off coughing/hacking). Brewing has been on hold for the same reason too - I really need to insulate the garage before next winter

But my plan is to start out with proper PBW to get a feel for how effective it is and then try dishwasher powder and/or maybe my own percarbonate and metasilicate for comparison. I have continual problems being in for deliveries so the dishwasher powder would be far more convenient, but I also go past the home brew shop a couple of times a year so PBW would be reasonably accessible too.

In small quantities of say 500g sodium metasilicate looks quite expensive at about £26/kg, ecover laundry bleach is sodium percarbonate and is good value even in small quantities, at about £2/400g. Stuart suggested a 2:1 metasilicate to percarbonate mix, so 1kg of home made stuff in that ratio would be a bit under £20/kg. five star's PBW is more like £16/kg (+ any P&P) and includes chelators etc too. That said, surfing around has suggested the percentages people think are in five star's PBW are generally estimates, so this may not be a direct comparison. However in 5kg quantities metasilicate is only about £5.50/kg so the percentages are less important anyway (as its about the same as percarbonate) - I still can't see percarbonate at much better value than the laundry bleach packs. So in 5kg batches the home made version would be about £5.35/kg and in 7kg (ish) packs PBW works out as about £8.50/kg at the retailers I know of, so its starting to be worth it if you get through a reasonable amount. Financially anyway, we don't know for sure how comparable the performance would be.

Dishwasher powder is quite wide ranging in price, but is more like £2.50/kg in similar sizes, so 1/2 the price by weight of home made pbw-alike. The problem I have here is dose, there seem to be different opinions on what PBW should be used at for CIP (soaking seems to be lower than spraying, and the degree of soiling make a difference too) and suggested dishwasher powder rates vary a lot when you can find them, so I'm struggling to get a handle on it. The most common seem to be 2.5g to 7g per L for PBW and up to 7ml/L for dishwasher powder. So it probably depends on determining what rates are actually needed before we can say if dishwasher powder is actually cheaper than home made brewery wash or not.

Cheers
Kev

[Gricey]

A noble pursuit then, hope you're over the 'flu now, I've had a nasty cold since the beginning of December, no help from docs though I now have some antibiotics as I burst an eardrum with my ears being so blocked, I still managed to crack out a Saison though while bursting my eardum

[Kev888]

Yeah mostly, but I got a chest infection afterwards so the icy cold garage isn't a healthy place for me to be at the mo. Scary about the ear drum - true dedication there though!

So it will be a while now before I try any of this but its definately on the plans; the hours of cleaning tanks and hoses is taking the fun out of otherwise pleasant brew days, particularly out in these dark, cold evenings. I'll report back if/when I get anywhere with it.

Cheers
Kev

[Gricey]

It was a bit surreal to be honest - I was sat there with blood coming out of my ears waiting for a callback from a nurse, then the alarm went off - oh, time for chiller and protafloc!

Dont know what it is about this year, everyone seems to be ill for a long time. Last time I went to the docs was 5 years ago when I was living in Dublin, but this time round I've been twice in two weeks. Hopefully the antibiotics will shift it, I can definitely feel a change since I started them.

I know what you mean about the joy of brewing, cleaning and bottling are really time consuming when I love all the other bits, making recipes, doing the actual brew. Some kind of spray ball / pump setup would be great for me when I move to the bigger rig, and for bottling - I might just move to cornies and bottle a smaller amount. We'll see.

Gricey

[Kev888]

Yeah, thats odd, I've also noticed many more people being ill than normal - and worse than normal and and for longer than normal too. Hope the recovery continues speedily!

Ah yes, the humble cornie. Thing is, in my experience anyway, after a while it seems too small; you realise you're doing the same amount of cleaning and so on for less beer, or brewing the same amount and having to keg and bottle. So then you decide to brew double-cornie batches instead - which is much more efficient but stretches your brewing kit too far and it becomes frustrating to use. So then you think s@d it and invest in a setup that will do bigger batches more easily, but get slightly ambitious and make yourself something that turns out to be too cumbersome to clean easily in the way you always cleaned stuff before. Which is annoying as half the point was to improve the cleaning-time-to-brew-length ratio. So you start thinking about CIP cleaners and sprayballs and post a thread on JBK about it...

Cheers
Kev

[Kev888]

I've been looking more into PBW vs the home made Sodium Metasilicate and Sodium Percarbonate mix, and whilst still dithering I think I may settle on the PBW, which supposedly has extras like buffers and chelators in.

I'm not clued up enough to judge how much difference this will actually make, but I do want to be able to just use tap water without worrying about it so it seems like it could be worthwhile. It would be twice the price though, and I'll get through a lot in a year, so if anyone thinks I'm making too much of the extras in PBW I'd really appreciate hearing about it!

Many thanks
Kev

[WishboneBrewery]

Where are you getting your Spray balls from?

The procedure at work goes like this:
CIP through Spray Ball (Not that high pressure but a good stream) of a Chlorinated Caustic called Divosan TC-86 http://www.johnsondiversey.com/Cultures ... ts/250.htm
Rinse with fresh water 3 times each time allowing to fully drain.

We use TC-86 for hot 45c Cask washing (Metal & Plastic casks) and Cold vessel sterilization, so I'd expect it to do a fine job on Boiler & Fermenter crud)

You'd be surprised what a good soaking and hot water will do, maybe just add some Washing Soda, no need to spend loads.

[Aleman]

Where are you getting your Spray balls from?

Coors - Really nice one for 20 quid

I use antiformin S . . .quite successfully . . . Cleanser sanitiser at up to 40C . . . .above that you drive of the chlorine . . .but the caustic is even more effective at cleaning then

I rarely see the need to use anything more than washing soda to remove the fermentation crud TBH . . . . I might try using some Oxyclean though and see if it makes a big difference

[RajBoab]

Saw Sodium Metasilicate for £5 a kg incl VAT here:

http://www.bonnymans.co.uk/products/pro ... oryID=1367

Postage is dependent on package weight.

Stuart