The Pendle Witch Project

[Madbrewer]

Am wondering if we could catagorise our less thab desirable results here?

Am a particular fan of S04 myself. Used the fermentis saflager for lagers and used Hook Norton from Hogs Back too. However I make things easy with a 'Not going for 100% likeness in my beers just very drinkable similars' approach! Although HN gives that buttery taste sometimes - it does clear down quickly etc.

This thread has now started me thinking though. In the past have I over simplified my understanding when using other yeasts like i have done? I.e. I thought that the top-workers were less fussy and more likely to be included with 'any' (cheap) kit regardless off suitability rather than a bottom worker & also thought that becuase I was getting thick cauliflower head on my fermenting wort quite quickly then it was the genuine article (which I expect my more usual/ common ones are!!). But as I have used others with success in the past too, so it would be interesting to note which ones (dray and liquid) are 'true to type' in their behaviour.

[Jim]

Wyeast London III is definitely a top-worker as well.

The Ringwood yeast is stronger (i.e. forms a thicker head), although that might just be because it's already experienced in fermenting beer when you get it.

[Graham]

Am wondering if we could categorise our less than desirable results here?

Not a bad idea. Trouble is that yeast performance is so dependant upon conditions, wort composition and pH, that one brewer's experiences may not be the same as another. For example: John Kerrane in Brewer's Contact indicates that none of the packaged yeasts he tested, including White Labs Burton Yeast, "Showed any sort of skimmable head". On the other hand, Aleman, in this thread, has a different experience.

This thread has now started me thinking though.

Me too. My interest was kindled in a minor way when David Edge frequently stated on here that they are all bottom working, but I really didn't believe him. Then John Kerrane's article in Brewer's Contact seemed to confirm David's views, and it became subject of the hour for me (Just until something else takes my fancy that is).

I thought that the top-workers were less fussy and more likely to be included with 'any' (cheap) kit regardless off suitability rather than a bottom worker

I would have thought the other way round. The winemaking, enclosed fermenter mentality of some of our larger distributors probably favours a bottom worker. Also, large volumes are required for dried and packaged yeast (unlike liquid yeasts), which means that it is unlikely that yeast is dried specifically for home brewing. We are riding on the backs of some other industry and we have to take what they are using.

thought that because I was getting thick cauliflower head on my fermenting wort quite quickly then it was the genuine article (which I expect my more usual/ common ones are!!).

Difference is whether the yeast is on the top through natural buoyancy (cell shape etc), or whether it is being held up there by CO2. thick cauliflower head sounds to me like true top working.

I suspect that the truth is that the distinction between top working and bottom working is not that distinct, so to speak; there are other factors involved.

[iowalad]

Just used Wyeast London III and based on the descriptions of an ale yeast given by various people above I would have to agree with Jim that it qualifies as a top worker.

I thought I read somewhere that Fullers yeast adapted rapidly and well from being a true top worker to becoming a bottom worker when they switched to conicals. I dont' recall anyone commenting on a flavor change but maybe it happened over time.

[steve_flack]

I would have thought the other way round. The winemaking, enclosed fermenter mentality of some of our larger distributors probably favours a bottom worker. Also, large volumes are required for dried and packaged yeast (unlike liquid yeasts), which means that it is unlikely that yeast is dried specifically for home brewing. We are riding on the backs of some other industry and we have to take what they are using.

We are riding on the back of another industry but I doubt it's the winemakers. Fermentis' biggest customers are industrial brewers who buy kilos/tons of the stuff. Indeed Fermentis will contract dry any yeast if you'll agree to take a minimum quantity of it (1,500kg).

[Graham]

I would have thought the other way round. The winemaking, enclosed fermenter mentality of some of our larger distributors probably favours a bottom worker. Also, large volumes are required for dried and packaged yeast (unlike liquid yeasts), which means that it is unlikely that yeast is dried specifically for home brewing. We are riding on the backs of some other industry and we have to take what they are using.

We are riding on the back of another industry but I doubt it's the winemakers. Fermentis' biggest customers are industrial brewers who buy kilos/tons of the stuff. Indeed Fermentis will contract dry any yeast if you'll agree to take a minimum quantity of it (1,500kg).

I wasn't suggesting that we are supplied with winemaker's stuff; it is just that winemaking is the biggest market for h/brew distributors and was where it all began; home brewing is the poor relation. Home brewing is still suffering from its winemaking heritage.

In fact, Fermentis is part of the Lesaffre group whose roots are in supplying yeast to commercial winemakers (Springer). Safale was originally supplied to us by the Distillers Company; their heritage is obvious.

It is just that home brewing is not a stand-alone industry. I would be surprised if Fermentis could survive on brewing yeast alone, where the predominant tradition is to self-propagate. Their main market is probably industrial alcohol production.

When Safale (without numbers) was supplied by Distillers it was specified in the literature as top working and I was told by a rep that it was a Whitbread strain.

It is difficult to ascertain if Safale04 is the same stuff; Fermentis have dropped top-working from the description and suggest that it is "well-adapted" to use in cylindro-conicals. The only Fermentis ale yeast that is specifically stated as a top worker is K-97, a German yeast.

[steve_flack]

The only Fermentis ale yeast that is specifically stated as a top worker is K-97, a German yeast.

I've got some in my fridge but not used it yet. If it's anything like the liquid altbier strains then they are very definitely top workers.

[steve_flack]

BTW, is anyone else getting banner ads for a gay dating service at the top of this page?

[MightyMouth]

BTW, is anyone else getting banner ads for a gay dating service at the top of this page?

Yes, I am. I think it might be the phrase "a bottom worker" thats doing it.

[steve_flack]

I would have thought it would be a good way for a brewery to store their yeast.

I think that's the idea. Clean up the yeast and then don't bother with all that tiresome yeast propagation. Just open a nice clean packet or two for every brew.

1500kg is a lot of 10g packets. We'd all need to go some to use that much.

[Graham]

1500kg is a lot of 10g packets. We'd all need to go some to use that much.

Two pallet loads before packaging!

I had toyed with the idea printing my own books, until someone showed me what a pile of 10,000 books looked like.