Hi
First of all, please let me apologise for being at this point before but I have now had a chance to check my water and it appears to be about 5.8/5.9 (if I'm supposed to read the colour of the little patch in the centre of the strip!)
Am I supposed to now adjust the water to about 5.3 or is it the PH of the mash that needs treatment. If so, do you make up the mash and then by trial and error try to correct that, as presumably the PH of the water changes as you add grain.
Also what treatment should I use? I know it varies with the type of ale but as a starting point, with water at 5.7/5.8, what should I start with.
I have read a lot about this subject but can't find anything on what actually to do.
Any help, as usual, is gratefully received.
Many thanks
OB
Water treatment, adjusting PH
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BigEd
A common misconception, it is the pH of the mash not the water that is of most importance. The reaction of the malt products in combination with the mineral ions in the water yeilds the mash pH. If your strike water has enough of the right ions for the beer being brewed the mash pH will fall into the correct range. The link below has a good primer on what you need to know about brewing water. On the most basic level you need some calcium for any mash and in general water with low carbonates is better for light grists and dark beers need carbonate water to balance the acid of black malts. http://www.allaboutbeer.com/homebrew/water3.html
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Redbloke
This almost comes as a great relief. The whole ph and water treatment business sets my head spinningDaaB wrote: I'll say again though, the PH of the water that comes out of you tap doesn't matter at all!
What would be useful on JHBF is for the more experienced brewers to suggest what beers are more likely to succeed, or what water treatments are needed for each water region (according to the beer type). This would be an excellent resource that I have not seen anywhere else. Obviously this would be dependent on the members input.
How about a dedicated thread lads (and lasses)
Cheers
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Redbloke
As I can see, a 'one size fits all' is not going to work in the water department. It's like golf, you can tell someone how to play but they have to practise to be any good.
I'm glad you mention Graham Wheeler's books, I have 2 of his, 'Home Brewing' (1991) and 'Brew Your Own Real Ale At Home' written with Roger Protz (1993) Do you know if his ideas have changed at all since he wrote these books? (i.e. preboiling the water), if not I will be revisiting the chapters on water treatment and stick with it until I get it right.
Cheers
I'm glad you mention Graham Wheeler's books, I have 2 of his, 'Home Brewing' (1991) and 'Brew Your Own Real Ale At Home' written with Roger Protz (1993) Do you know if his ideas have changed at all since he wrote these books? (i.e. preboiling the water), if not I will be revisiting the chapters on water treatment and stick with it until I get it right.
Cheers
This point about soft water keeps getting reiterated. The first line on the Brupaks CRS treatment says something along the lines of "all but the softest of waters contain (either alkalinity/bicarbonates/carbonates)" cannot remember the exact words, however, it is utter rubbish and should be removed from their labeling. (And the line about neutralisation of excess acid could be better worded)DaaB wrote:If you have soft water you don't need to boil as far as I can tell although you may struggle to get the mash ph up as Jim has found.
Soft means low in calcium and magnesium it DOES NOT MEAN LOW IN ALKALINITY.
The Hastings beds which cover Horsham in Sussex are soft but contain sodium carbonate/bicarbonate hence they have alkalinity which needs to be neutralised. I believe that King and Barnes Brewery used to draw from this bed although I think they are now defunct and may be called Hepworth Brewing, but I stand to be corrected on that one.
There are several places over the south of England that can provide sodium carbonate/bicarbonate waters such as Tunbrige, Horley, Aldershot, but it will normally have had to come from a borehole.
Brupaks are entitled to use whatever terminology they like but the first line of the label for which I now have the correct wording "All but the very softest of water contains alkalinity in the form of carbonates" is perpetuating the misconception that hardness and alkalinity are virtually interchangeable terms, which they are not. If you took your very hard water which does contain alkalinity and put it through a softener you would remove the calcium and magnesium and replace them with sodium. You now have negligible levels of calcium and magnesium which makes your water soft but it still has the same alkalinity in the form of bicarbonates/carbonates as it did before it was softened.
By their wording people who use softeners to treat their water may be under the misconception that they therefore have virtually no alkalinity.
By their wording people who use softeners to treat their water may be under the misconception that they therefore have virtually no alkalinity.
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Graham
Graham Wheeler has not changed his views on pre-boiling the water to remove carbonates. I prefer it to CRS because it is fail-safe, inasmuch as you can't overdo it, you are only removing stuff from the water (not adding ions to it), you don't need a water report (which are often inadequate) and it probably leaves sufficient bicarbonate behind to give a bit of buffering. The downside to boiling is the time it takes, but that can be mitigated by doing it the day before brewing and storing it in a cask or brewing bucket until you are ready.Redbloke wrote:As I can see, a 'one size fits all' is not going to work in the water department. It's like golf, you can tell someone how to play but they have to practise to be any good.
I'm glad you mention Graham Wheeler's books, I have 2 of his, 'Home Brewing' (1991) and 'Brew Your Own Real Ale At Home' written with Roger Protz (1993) Do you know if his ideas have changed at all since he wrote these books? (i.e. preboiling the water), if not I will be revisiting the chapters on water treatment and stick with it until I get it right.
Cheers
Graham is not so sure about the first edition of "Home Brewing" though. Not good!
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Redbloke
... I've just re-read chapter 6 (water treatment) of 'Brew Your Own Real Ale At Home' and the simplicity of it slaps you in the face 
I'm not sure how I've managed to get so confused with the subject!, maybe it's reading so many conflicting opinions
So, for me, I will be sticking with GW's recommendations
Cheers
I'm not sure how I've managed to get so confused with the subject!, maybe it's reading so many conflicting opinions So, for me, I will be sticking with GW's recommendations
Cheers
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andyp
And can you sum this up in just a few words?
"Just boil your mash water for a few minutes" would be ideal for me as I'm keen to keep additional chemicals to an absolute minimum or ideally non existent. The Ph of my first experimental mash was 5.6 - or slightly under so maybe needs lowering a touch?
Fascinating thread chaps!
"Just boil your mash water for a few minutes" would be ideal for me as I'm keen to keep additional chemicals to an absolute minimum or ideally non existent. The Ph of my first experimental mash was 5.6 - or slightly under so maybe needs lowering a touch?
Fascinating thread chaps!
Last edited by andyp on Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Graham
What is your water like (chalky or not chalky)?andyp wrote:And can you sum this up in just a few words?
"Just boil your mash water for a few minutes" would be ideal for me as I'm keen to keep additional chemicals to an absolute minimum or ideally non existent. The Ph of my first experimental mash was 5.6 - or slightly under so maybe needs lowering a touch?
Fascinating thread chaps!
What treatment did you do, if any, when you achieved pH5.6?
You probably will not get away without adding Gypsum though - but you might.
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andyp
"What is your water like (chalky or not chalky)?
What treatment did you do, if any, when you achieved pH5.6? "
No idea - Nottingham, Severn Trent so perhaps medium? kettles don't quite seem as furry as when I lived in Bristol.
No water treatment, I just took a reading by dipping a ph strip in the porridge half way through. Is 5.6 an issue?
I'm not counting this as my first All Grain as it was mainly working through the process, the sparge was a gloriously chaotic improvisation. I've got something resembling beer tho'
What treatment did you do, if any, when you achieved pH5.6? "
No idea - Nottingham, Severn Trent so perhaps medium? kettles don't quite seem as furry as when I lived in Bristol.
No water treatment, I just took a reading by dipping a ph strip in the porridge half way through. Is 5.6 an issue?
I'm not counting this as my first All Grain as it was mainly working through the process, the sparge was a gloriously chaotic improvisation. I've got something resembling beer tho'
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Graham
No pH5.6 isn't really an issue - certainly not if you are just beginning this brewing lark.
Looking at the water for a random postcode in the centre of Nottingham (The council offices), the water board give almost bugger all useful information about the water, but they do give hardness as 109 mg Ca/l (which is hard), which means that you have something like 320 ppm of bicarbonate, which is high.
So yes, you would benefit by boiling your water for half-an-hour the night before, allowing it to settle and cool a bit, and then rack it off the precipitate into a cask or fermenter ready for the next day.
However, you may rob the process of calcium, so I would advise throwing in something like 12 grams of gypsum at the beginning of the boil.
If, when you mash, the pH is much below pH5.2 add less gypsum next time you brew (halve it). If the pH is much above pH 5.3 add more gypsum (double it).
It is trial and error, but you will get there, and you will find a treatment that suits your water. You gotta keep notes though.
It wouldn't hurt to throw a teaspoonful or two of gypsum into the copper during the wort boil, either, particularly if you are not adding much to the water.
However, if you are a beginner to full-mash, it's probably better to concentrate on other things initially.
Looking at the water for a random postcode in the centre of Nottingham (The council offices), the water board give almost bugger all useful information about the water, but they do give hardness as 109 mg Ca/l (which is hard), which means that you have something like 320 ppm of bicarbonate, which is high.
So yes, you would benefit by boiling your water for half-an-hour the night before, allowing it to settle and cool a bit, and then rack it off the precipitate into a cask or fermenter ready for the next day.
However, you may rob the process of calcium, so I would advise throwing in something like 12 grams of gypsum at the beginning of the boil.
If, when you mash, the pH is much below pH5.2 add less gypsum next time you brew (halve it). If the pH is much above pH 5.3 add more gypsum (double it).
It is trial and error, but you will get there, and you will find a treatment that suits your water. You gotta keep notes though.
It wouldn't hurt to throw a teaspoonful or two of gypsum into the copper during the wort boil, either, particularly if you are not adding much to the water.
However, if you are a beginner to full-mash, it's probably better to concentrate on other things initially.
Last edited by Graham on Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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andyp
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Graham
Yes, good idea. Your pH will certainly lower after boiling the water.
You might have plenty of gypsum already in your water - highly likely, I guess, if you have a gypsum mine just down the road. Your water board says nothing about what sort of minerals are in your water.
Calcium sulphate comes in various forms, but gypsum is the form usually sold in home brew shops.
If you are getting it from a home brew shop, you might want to get some calcium chloride as well. Might come in handy later on in your apprenticeship.
You might have plenty of gypsum already in your water - highly likely, I guess, if you have a gypsum mine just down the road. Your water board says nothing about what sort of minerals are in your water.
Calcium sulphate comes in various forms, but gypsum is the form usually sold in home brew shops.
If you are getting it from a home brew shop, you might want to get some calcium chloride as well. Might come in handy later on in your apprenticeship.