Stainless Boiler - 3kW Immersion elements

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Graham

Post by Graham » Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:19 pm

russt1969 wrote:Hi all,
I like the look of these heaters. May give it a go. Being a novice in the world of electrics. Can you wire these up to normal 13 amp plugs or do you have to get a dedicated power supply??
Domestic heaters, well any mains heaters, are usually rated at 240V - which is still the UK's typical, if not nominal, mains voltage, despite our electricity being "Europed" at 230V.

3kW @240V = 12.5A, which is within limits. The same heater at 230V is 2.8kW, which gives 11.9A. They are no different, really, to the 3kW fan heaters that are available in places like Argos.

The main problem, as I see it, apart from the high temperatures that might be attained within the housing, is that the housing is not intrinsically water proof. Some ingenuity will be needed to protect the connections from inevitable boil overs, sloshy cleaning processes, etc.

prodigal2

Post by prodigal2 » Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:45 pm

Graham wrote: Domestic heaters, well any mains heaters, are usually rated at 240V - which is still the UK's typical, if not nominal, mains voltage, despite our electricity being "Europed" at 230V.
It is very rare actualy to get 240V(usualy when the substaion is tapped for a bigger load than it is taking) 230V is the official voltage of the UK, in europe it is 220V(though I have metered in Spain down to 90V).
Graham wrote:3kW @240V = 12.5A, which is within limits. The same heater at 230V is 2.8kW, which gives 11.9A. They are no different, really, to the 3kW fan heaters that are available in places like Argos.
Realisticaly you should only ever load up to 80% of the potential due to voltage fluctuaction and the shortening of the life span of the components involved.
Graham wrote:The main problem, as I see it, apart from the high temperatures that might be attained within the housing, is that the housing is not intrinsically water proof. Some ingenuity will be needed to protect the connections from inevitable boil overs, sloshy cleaning processes, etc.
IF your not sure get a sparks to look it over, heat and inappropriate components will eventually lead to a fire/short or both(RCD's don't protect for every eventuality).

Sorry to disagree Graham, but I work with electricity in my work life, and would like to pass on my experiences. Though for a more definitive I would always go with what Sparky Paul has to say as he is a Sparky and is far more aware with current regulations.

sparky Paul

Post by sparky Paul » Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:53 am

There's a few issues going on here.

Whilst the nominal voltage for the UK dropped from 240V to 230V, it's not quite that simple. The permissible range also changed from 240V +/-6% to 230V +10%/-6%, so you can see that the medial value is still around 235V. In reality, most UK supplies hover around 235-242V, but 253V is permissible, and on rare occasions even this is exceeded. You can see why care is needed when operating near to the limits.

P2 is right that whilst UK BS1363 plug and socket outlets are rated at 13A, operating on or near 100% load for long periods will reduce the service life of these components. Feel how warm a plug gets after supplying a 13A load for an hour or two.

There is a further problem relating to immersion heaters in a domestic setting. IEE regulation 554-05-03 effectively prohibits the use of immersion heaters from 13A sockets. The reason for this is that not all 13A switched socket provide the double pole isolation required. Although it can be argued that removal of the plug offers total isolation, the regulations are quite specific in their requirements.

Whilst this is aimed at the usual domestic use in a hot water system rather than a mini-brewery, it is a very grey area in a domestic setting. You are dealing with a system with exposed metalwork which may well, at some point, be connected to the household plumbing directly or via flowing water. I suspect that it could easily be argued that such a use would fall within the scope of the above regulation which relates specifically to the wiring arrangements for instantaneous and immersion heaters.

As I said earlier, it is perfectly possible to use immersion heaters from 13A sockets with care, but I still could not advise (or condone) it. I'm not saying that using heaters in this way cannot be safe, I know there will be many using them like this without any problems. However, in my opinion, the use of 16A IEC309/BS4343 type plugs and DP isolator/socket units (ideally on separate 16A radial circuits) is the best and safest conforming option.

Graham

Post by Graham » Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:27 am

sparky Paul wrote:There's a few issues going on here.
Whilst the nominal voltage for the UK dropped from 240V to 230V, it's not quite that simple. The permissible range also changed from 240V +/-6% to 230V +10%/-6%, so you can see that the medial value is still around 235V. In reality, most UK supplies hover around 235-242V, but 253V is permissible, and on rare occasions even this is exceeded. You can see why care is needed when operating near to the limits.
My domestic mains voltage, measured at 9pm Saturday, was 242V.
All that happened, when we got "Europed", was that the British specification of 240V +/- 6% got changed to 230V +10% / -6%. The change in the upper tolerance to 10% craftily encompassed the UK nominal of 240V. Nothing really changed in practical terms. According to one source on the net, it is changing again this year to 230V +/- 10%. Apparently the European 220-volters are finding it difficult to keep within the low limit (they only have 3.8 Volts to play with).

Someone else on the net, talking about the same subject, sums up the reality quite well:
"...This sounded fine in theory but when the costs of replacing all the supply equipment to deliver 230v was calculated it was decided that it was uneconomic (there being no advantage whatever in changing, other than ‘harmonisation’). However, to avoid accusations of failure to harmonise, they simply fiddled with the legal voltage limits. The law now states 230v +10% -6%, thereby allowing the European 220v system to stay at 220v and UK to stay at 240v, yet both appear to be harmonised!"

What the EN thingy really means is that as long as equipment is designed to work reliably between 216V and 253V (perhaps soon, 209V to 253V) without exceeding its specifications, then it will work reliably throughout Europe, which is what the spec is all about.

Anyway, most of that is immaterial, it is the spec of the element that is important.
sparky Paul wrote: P2 is right that whilst UK BS1363 plug and socket outlets are rated at 13A, operating on or near 100% load for long periods will reduce the service life of these components. Feel how warm a plug gets after supplying a 13A load for an hour or two.
'Tis true that increased loading reduces life, but to me, 13A rating means 13A. Any de-rating factors should be accounted for in the B.S specification and the fundamental design of the thing. A certain amount of temperature rise would be permissible, but a newish, good-quality plug with untarnished pins and tight fuse clips should be within specification. If heating is excessive then a replacement plug or wall-socket should solve it.
sparky Paul wrote: As I said earlier, it is physically possible to use immersion heaters from 13A sockets with care, but I still would not advise (or condone) it.
It depends upon how the heater is specified. It is pointless specifying a wattage unless the voltage at which that wattage applies is also stated. Heatrae Sadia specify theirs as 3kW@240V, so theirs at least seem okay. It is no different to people using their 3kW Burco's or old-style 3kW kettle elements in their boilers, or, indeed, my kitchen kettle, which is 3kW @240V.

However, the fact remains that we are using a cylinder immersion heater for something that technically it isn't sold for, even though commercial versions are just the same, but probably sold at commercial prices too. I do not have any particular problem with that in principle, home brewers and home-brew suppliers have been doing the same thing with kettle elements for years; except that kettle elements are meant to be plugged in, whereas immersion heaters apparently are not. The possible high temperatures within the terminal housing can be dealt with using easily obtainable parts, and is no different to any other type of heater that might be employed for the same application. Indeed, Heatrae state that their heaters have a "cold-zone" like commercial ones do, to prevent the terminal box overheating. In fact, most makes must have a cold zone, otherwise the solder would melt on the terminals, which seems to be apparent in the previous photograph. Nevertheless, the temperature in the terminal housing could be expected to reach 100C, so ordinary cable and connectors are inappropriate.

My biggest concern is that the housing isn't water tight. It would be a trivial matter to seal the housing if it wasn't for the ruddy great cable-entry hole in the cover. A gasket would probably do it; indeed, it looks as if a spare sealing-washer for the thread would fit - if it wasn't for that hole. That housing must be water-tight, or housed in a secondary water-tight container, for the thing to be intrinsically safe. Particularly in the home-brew situation where boil-overs are common.

It would be a great shame if immersion-heater elements cannot be made 100% compatible with home brewing. Not only will the supply of kettle elements dry up, but immersion heaters are, in many ways, superior to kettle elements, apart from being cheaper these days. 3kW is a useful size; the energy is dissipated through a large area of element tubing, which gives much reduced wort darkening (compared modern mini kettle-elements which darken the wort considerably). Heck, they even have a convenient thermopocket or thermowell, into which the high-techs amongst us can stick their PT100's, should they be so inclined.

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Garth
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Post by Garth » Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:56 am

DaaB, That is one thing that crossed my mind, what do I do if I'm doing a small batch, as a trial brew or just to fit into cornie?

At the moment I vary my batch sizes between 20 litre destined for cornie only, 23-25 litres for cornie and a few bottles, and 40 + litres for a cornie and a full bottling run. Sometimes left over malt/hops dictate what size I brew just to use some older stuff up.

I have two 2.4kW in the H&G boiler at the moment and on the smaller batches I knock one off once the rolling boil is achieved, if it's a 23 litre batch I can usually turn back the thermostat back even more off full power and still get a roll.

Maybe one of those phase things fitted on one element is the answer, or keep a smaller boiler for these occasions?

sparky Paul

Post by sparky Paul » Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:09 am

Graham wrote:It is no different to people using their 3kW Burco's or old-style 3kW kettle elements in their boilers, or, indeed, my kitchen kettle, which is 3kW @240V.
It is different, but only because it is specifically prohibited in the Regs.

Kettles and Burcos are portable appliances which have no direct connection to the household plumbing whilst power is applied.

I know what you're saying Graham, you can use these elements perfectly safely if you know what you're doing, but I can't really say it is okay to use them in such a way that could contravene current Regs. Using immersion heaters in a stand alone boiler should be acceptable, but as soon as you start building them into a fixed system, you're going to fall foul of the regs.
Last edited by sparky Paul on Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Andy
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Post by Andy » Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:16 am

sparky Paul wrote:current Regs.

No pun intended I hope :lol:
Dan!

sparky Paul

Post by sparky Paul » Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:22 am

Andy wrote:
sparky Paul wrote:current Regs.

No pun intended I hope :lol:
Oh yeah, I missed that one! :lol:

Vossy1

Post by Vossy1 » Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:44 pm

If you don't mind chopping more holes in your nice new boiler then 1 x 3kw and 1 x 2.75kw might be an idea
That's what I was going to do.

I've got a immersion element sat in a box on standby.
My idea was to put 1 x 3kw immersion element and one 2.75kw element in my 100 ltr boiler use both to get to the boil then turn one off.
Using Andy's wattage v heating calculator there was minimal advantage in using the above over 2 x 2.75 kw elements regards time taken getting to the boil.

I therefore decided to give the 2 x 2.75 elements a go first. If they extend the brew day by a gross amount I will switch to the 3 kw elements, maybe even fitting 2.

85ltrs at mash temp 65 deg c being taken to 99 deg c using 5.5 kw element power total = 37 mins

85ltrs at mash temp 65 deg c being taken to 99 deg c using 6kw element total power = 34 mins

I can live with the 3 minute difference for the moment and if it works in practice.

Great advice in this tread chaps 8)

Graham

Post by Graham » Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:18 pm

DaaB wrote:I don't know if they will dry up now Graham, on a recent trawl through the net I found more than ever...
From the purely logical point of view, I think it is inevitable that they will dry up. Of the 86 kettles on the Argos web site, all, except for the Russell Hobbs "classic" (A retro-style kettle) and a couple of cheap plastic jug types, have 3kW concealed elements - they can't be replaced. Of the jug types, they are so cheap, £4.60 to £9.99 that nobody is going to spend £17 on a new element for one. In fact, nobody is going to replace an element on a kettle these days - they sling the kettle and buy another one. No call for spares = no spares available. This prediction I am fairly certain about, the timing of this momentous event, though, I am not so certain about. But we are already seeing signs of it. The remaining decent 9/16 type kettle elements seem to be nearly all gone.
DaaB wrote: Boiling 30 ish litres at a time to finish with 23L I find the 2.4kw element a good size. 3kw would be too vigorous for my purposes.
I have to disagree with you there. A lot of us are using 3kW on 23 litre batches. Burcos are 3kW and even the Electrims and Bruheats were 3kW until the supply of 9/16 elements dried up. MY HLT is 3kW and my yeast propagator (yes I have one of those) is 3kW, because at the time I built them, the 3kW 9/16-style element was the standard kettle element and was what was available. Everything was 3kW in those days.

What you are seeing is the effect of convection currents rather than a particularly vigorous boil. What you have is 2.4kW of energy concentrated in a very small physical size (far too small in my view) and offset to the side of the boiler. This offset produces violent convention currents which give the appearance of a "good rolling boil", when in fact it isn't. Not that there is a problem with that. It is the mechanical action that is important and it provides that mechanical action. As long as hot-break manifests itself in a reasonable period of time, it's okay.

Indeed, it is a trick that was often employed when there was a trend for five-barrel breweries to be installed in pubs, usually using under-powered electric heating. Offsetting the heaters to one side gave the effect of a vigorous boil, but it was an optical illusion. Often these breweries were so underpowered, that not only did it take ages to reach boiling point, but it also took ages for hot break to be achieved, and then it had to boiled some after that. I'm sure the beer suffered, if not the patience of the brewer.
DaaB wrote: The draw back with the 3kw immersion is it might prove tricky to get 2 into a 33L plastic boiler and they require large holes to fit them further weakening the structure of something that is already being pushed beyond its limit. In this case 2 elements in a 33L plastic boiler are definately out..
I will agree that the major drawback is the ruddy great holes needed to fit them, and not ideal on small-diameter curved surfaces like a typical bin. I am sure that the ingenuity of man can devise a way of fitting two of them, should man think it necessary.
DaaB wrote: and 1 would take longer to bring the water to the boil than the 2 x 2.4kw elements I have in the boiler all ready.
Yes, with mash liquor, agreed. But it shouldn't be an issue with sparge liquor or wort. Sparge liquor can be heated while mashing is taking place. You can turn on your wort boiler as soon as the element is covered, and as sparging should take a minimum of an hour, your wort should be boiling well before sparging is complete. Admittedly that requires an HLT; a boiler that doubles as an HLT is a different issue.
DaaB wrote: I would find the boil on 1 x 3kw element too vigorous... ...On the whole for the smaller batch brewers like myself I don't think that a 3kw heater is a particularly convenient option.
I don't think that you would find it too vigorous.

3kW heaters have been convenient enough for almost as long as modern home brewing has been about. The Bruheat is mentioned in Dave Line's "Big Book", so it even preceded the "Late and Great". That was 3kW, 34 years ago.

Now I wonder what odds the bookies will give on kettle elements ....?

Vossy1

Post by Vossy1 » Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:27 pm

This being a public forum and immersion heaters being easily obtainable I'd like to see some way of what Sparky Paul said being made un-missable

ie;
Also, it is absolutely essential that you used heat-resistant butyl cable for immersion heaters, not standard PVC 3 core flex. If you need to make any connections on the immersion heater itself, e.g. after removing thermostat and overtemp. trip if fitted, use porcelain or other heat-resistant connectors.
From what I can see the biggest problem with these elements would be underated/incompatible wiring :shock:

prodigal2

Post by prodigal2 » Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:51 pm

Vossy1 wrote:This being a public forum and immersion heaters being easily obtainable I'd like to see some way of what Sparky Paul said being made un-missable

ie;
Also, it is absolutely essential that you used heat-resistant butyl cable for immersion heaters, not standard PVC 3 core flex. If you need to make any connections on the immersion heater itself, e.g. after removing thermostat and overtemp. trip if fitted, use porcelain or other heat-resistant connectors.
From what I can see the biggest problem with these elements would be underated/incompatible wiring :shock:
AND.. the lack of a IP56 quality housing for the terminal ends :wink: In truth both have equal significance. Although I think with some heleman(SP?) sleeving there MAY be a way to get there to offer splash proof protection.

I will offer a tale about how on two occasions I have seen people getting electrocuted WITHOUT tripping the RCD/RCBO. It is quite possible for a person to short between live and neutral and not earth and the only protection will be MCB so until you over draw through the body to trip the MCB, you will be getting one hell of a belt. On both occasions water was involved :roll:

Graham

Post by Graham » Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:57 pm

Vossy1 wrote:This being a public forum and immersion heaters being easily obtainable I'd like to see some way of what Sparky Paul said being made un-missable

ie;
Also, it is absolutely essential that you used heat-resistant butyl cable for immersion heaters, not standard PVC 3 core flex. If you need to make any connections on the immersion heater itself, e.g. after removing thermostat and overtemp. trip if fitted, use porcelain or other heat-resistant connectors.
From what I can see the biggest problem with these elements would be underated/incompatible wiring :shock:
It is a problem that would be encountered using any type of heater that doesn't have a plug and socket arrangement. Some of these elements removed from cheap kettles being examples. Plugged heaters usually use special "hot-condition" plugs which can withstand a pin temperature of 120 degrees C, (but the plug body only 70C) and they won't mate with ordinary IEC connectors. So don't lose the lead for your wall-paper stripper!

I see the biggest problem as keeping wort and water out of the housing.

I must confess that seeing people on here using a cut-off PET bottle as a shroud around a salvaged cheap Tesco kettle element did make me cringe somewhat.

Vossy1

Post by Vossy1 » Sun Mar 30, 2008 6:02 pm

Cheers p2 :wink:

Though not IP56, I was thinking of using a piece of drain pipe bonded to the vessel around the terminal of the immersion housing with a channel cut out of the bottom of it to stop liquid travelling along it.
Couple to this using a bottom entry gland out of the housing, cable also sealed with sealant, and it'd probably be safer than most kettle elements that are in use :roll:
Very similar to the tubing someones already used with exposed kettle element terminals.

I can just see something as simple as the right type of cable being VERY easily overlooked.
Can anyone provide a link to the "right" kind of cable for these elements.

EDIT:- time to cringe again G...sorry :lol:

Vossy1

Post by Vossy1 » Sun Mar 30, 2008 6:05 pm

Are the elements as supplied by brupak IP56 rated at the terminal housing?

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