New water treatment calculator

[Vossy1]

Just had a little play Graham and I like it
I see you went for 1:1 sulphate to chloride on the bitter profile.

My water authority gives hardness as degrees clark 1.75 or as 10mg Ca/l.
Any idea how to covert either of these into something that can be inputted into your calculator?

If I enter the 10 into the CaCO3 hardness box it reduces the Calcium to 4 from a figure of 7.92 in the water composition box.

EDIT

Just found an answer.

1 degree clarke = 14.3mg/l of CaCO3,

So for me with 1.75 deg clarkes in my water means I have a CaCO3 figure of 25.025mg/l of CaCO3...I think

Entering 25.03 into the hardness CaCO3 calculator, changes my calcium level in the water composition to 10, whereas the measured figure is 7.92.

Does this really matter at all?

(I know the water report figures aren't reliable)

Also, my water alkalinity is expressed as Ph 7.2.
(I know alkalinity and Ph are not the same)
Would there be any way to incorperate that measurement into the alkalinity box of the calculator and/or would there be any point?

[Jim]

Does this look right? There seems to be an awful lot of gypsum and calcium chloride going in.

[Vossy1]

although it doesn't take into account the ions from the malt.

The ion in wort/beer table has been bugging me since it was posted...in a thought provoking way.

Historically have these figures just been taken as red, and any additions for style/poor water are for want of a better phrase, 'in addition' to them ?

I realise the history of the figures may be short.

[Jim]

the left is mg/l the right is grams of the product.

7g sulphate and 10g calcium chloride (in 32L) doesn't look like that much to me although it doesn't take into account the ions from the malt.

I don't know if this link has been posted before, but it's good for getting gram/teaspoon equivalents.

How to Brew

Also, 10g of CaCl isn't as much as I thought.

[Graham]

Try you could try using a seive and some kitchen scales, I bought some DLS the other day, all it appears to be is calcium chloride flakes and gyspum.

Yes, that is all that DLS is, plus a little bit of magnesium sulphate.

[Graham]

Just had a little play Graham and I like it
I see you went for 1:1 sulphate to chloride on the bitter profile.

My water authority gives hardness as degrees clark 1.75 or as 10mg Ca/l.
Any idea how to covert either of these into something that can be inputted into your calculator?

If I enter the 10 into the CaCO3 hardness box it reduces the Calcium to 4 from a figure of 7.92 in the water composition box.

EDIT

Just found an answer.

1 degree clarke = 14.3mg/l of CaCO3,

So for me with 1.75 deg clarkes in my water means I have a CaCO3 figure of 25.025mg/l of CaCO3...I think

Entering 25.03 into the hardness CaCO3 calculator, changes my calcium level in the water composition to 10, whereas the measured figure is 7.92.

Does this really matter at all?

(I know the water report figures aren't reliable)

Also, my water alkalinity is expressed as Ph 7.2.
(I know alkalinity and Ph are not the same)
Would there be any way to incorperate that measurement into the alkalinity box of the calculator and/or would there be any point?

You should only use the Hardness box in a dire emergency. I am now questioning the wisdom of putting it up there.

It is alkalinity that you want need use (not pH), if you have a figure for it.

If you have a separate figure for carbonate, then even better; use that.

You might not have any alkalinity. You've got the best part of nothing in your water anyway.

[Vossy1]

Edited post out

[MDE]

This is certainly the best water calculation app I have seen. I have been using a spreadsheet for years, but it is pretty clunky. The previously available software was not up to the job. Also, my spreadsheet links to my recipe sheet, so it gives me all the ingredients & processes on one page.
I decided to benchmark Graham's app against my spreadsheet. I put alkalinity, Ca, Na, SO4 & Cl into the app. I didn't have a Mg figure, so calculated it separately as (hardness[as CaCO3]/50 - Ca/20)*12.1. This gave a figure which seemed to be correct as it balanced the anions and cations. Putting in a hardness figure and then adjusting the known anions and cations to their actual figures, followed by adjusting Mg to give the right balance also worked. Some sort of "goal seek" might be neater (but harder to program, I imagine!). The app gave the same CRS addition as my spreadsheet, but about double the amount of salts, so I think I need to take a closer look at the calculations.
The main improvement I can see would be to give the additions in ml or teaspoons, since most of us can't measure small amounts any other way. Since I am calculating back from teaspoons, this may be where the error creeps in - either that or something to do with Ca and Mg having valency = 2.
My own spreadsheet also tries to estimate the mash pH based on the colour of the malts used. There are a number of different methods given for this, which don't entirely agree, so I go for a rough average which seems to work.

[Graham]

Putting in a hardness figure and then adjusting the known anions and cations to their actual figures, followed by adjusting Mg to give the right balance also worked. Some sort of "goal seek" might be neater (but harder to program, I imagine!).

If by "goal seek" you mean some sort of "Auto-balance" button for the cations and anions, yes that did occur to me when I was writing it. Feedback has now shown that many people do not bother to ensure that their water is in balance, probably because they are not sure how. So an autobalance button is back on the agenda. Unfortunately, you can balance the water in several different ways, so an informed human mind might make a better job of it, I have to be careful that it doesn't confuse, or that people do not come to rely on it as a substitute for incomplete data.

The hardness box has proved a mixed blessing. Feedback has again shown that many people are using it instead of the alkalinity box. I have three options - improve the instructions, or remove the hardness box, or move the hardness box down the bottom of the page somewhere out of temptation's way.

You are lucky that you know something about water, many people don't, so I have to somehow remove the need to understand what's going for sensible results to be achieved.

The app gave the same CRS addition as my spreadsheet, but about double the amount of salts, so I think I need to take a closer look at the calculations.

Have you taken the water of crystallisation into account? Of course, it might not be your calculations that are wrong.

Your comments for improvements have been noted.
Thanks.

[RabMaxwell]

I have been trying Grahams calculator truly great was wanting to calculate water for Scottish ales what ratio would i go with.Why doesn't Graham write a program similar but obviously better & more up to date than promash i would pay money for that.

[Graham]

I have been trying Grahams calculator truly great was wanting to calculate water for Scottish ales what ratio would i go with.Why doesn't Graham write a program similar but obviously better & more up to date than promash i would pay money for that.

Do you mean like this one?

[RabMaxwell]

When is it going on sale i like the hoping calculator where you can add hops by there percentage very nice

[Graham]

When is it going on sale i like the hoping calculator where you can add hops by there percentage very nice

It won't be sold - it'll be free. There is plenty of free software floating around on my computers, particularly my Linux box. It's my chance to give something back, albeit relatively minor in comparison and to a different community.

You can do things by percentage or absolute weight. If the "fixed" boxes are unticked, next to OG and EBU, the buttons underneath change to grams and you can add specific quantities. With hops you can do absolute weight, percentage weight, absolute EBU and percentage EBU by ticking or unticking buttons and boxes. Grain similarly.

It is far from finished - I have to write the water calculator bit, for a start, all over again and in a different language (groan!).

I am sure that the water treatment bits in the other applications will magically improve now that my secrets and clever bits are out in the open.

[MDE]

I've worked out why my calculations give roughly half the salt additions to those in Graham's app. I add my salts to the grist, not the water. Only about half the water goes into the mash. I usually then add a similar amount of salts when sparging, unless the mash pH is significantly different from expectations. So Graham's calc's are spot on, I think.
It really is a neat little tool. Maybe when it's all linked into his super recipe calculator, it'll even predict the pH

[BarrowBoy]

Perfect timing.

Only last night I got to (and read) the chapter on Water and Water Treatment in 'Home Brewing' and I've got a brew planned for this weekend. In the past I've just worked on the Dave Line principle (1 tsp epsom; half tsp gypsum - or is it the other way round? - in soft water for a bitter) so it'll be interesting to see what differences the calculator brings up.