How improtant is water treatment?

[David Edge]

After reading through all these post on water treatment I'm intrigued, as yet I have never treated my water prior to brewing, either for kits or grains.

Neither do 50% of UK commercial brewers (by number, not by volume) for what it's worth.

If you want an even more hairshirt approach than Tony's (with which I agree) brew a pale ale and a stout with untreated water. The Palmer approach is to continue to brew whatever comes out better. The Edge plan is that that tells you what your water's good for and gives you a clue what to do for the other style.

[SteveD]

Of course if you have high alkalinity then you are going to brew good stouts, In my case I might improve things if I added a tsp of chalk to my grist, but as I get good results with things as they are the I am going to leave things alone.

Er...no. High alkalinity isn't good for anything. Stouts will tolerate a higher level than paler beers because the higher natural acidity of the grist ensures that mash PH still comes out right. High bicarbonate levels interfere with mash and coppering reactions and is just not beneficial. Adding chalk is an error that's been passed down and repeated by one homebrew writer after another. Unless you're going to acidify your liquor (thus defeating the object?), or blow CO2 through it... insoluble calcium carbonate will mostly just settle out on the bottom...

You had it right first time...reduce the HCO3 down to 50ppm and then:- apply calcium sulphate, or chlorides (sodium, or calcium, depending on how much extra calcium you want), or lactic acid, or do nothing. The last two being applicable for soft water lagers, etc.

[Aleman]

Of course if you have high alkalinity then you are going to brew good stouts, In my case I might improve things if I added a tsp of chalk to my grist, but as I get good results with things as they are the I am going to leave things alone.

Er...no. High alkalinity isn't good for anything. Stouts will tolerate a higher level than paler beers because the higher natural acidity of the grist ensures that mash PH still comes out right.

I agree completely Steve, high alkalinity is to be completely avoided, but appropriate alkalinity is to be desired. In beers with low proportions of darker malts then the rule applies. My water appears to be softer than Jim's or Rab's, and has an alkalinity of around 18mg/L (measured while drawing off the liquor) this basically leads to my mash pH crashing and ending up around the 4.8-5.0 range when I'm using a typical stout grist (its around 5.2 with paler beers so I'm not that bothered about treating it). I need to do something to raise that mash pH, and adding chalk to the grist then mashing in WILL have an effect as essentially the mash is an acid environment and the calcium carbonate WILL (and does!) dissolve, to release those carbonate ions. The quantity required is extremely small around 1g in a 50L mash, and this helps buffer the mash pH in the direction I want it to go.

Grahams suggestion of using Caustic Soda and Sodium Bicarbonate is a good one although I would be concerned about pushing the sodium level above the taste threshold (plus measuring sodium is a PITA at home )

[Graham]

Grahams suggestion of using Caustic Soda and Sodium Bicarbonate is a good one although I would be concerned about pushing the sodium level above the taste threshold (plus measuring sodium is a PITA at home )

Actually, it was washing soda (sodium carbonate) and sodium bicarbonate, that I suggested, but only because s. carbonate isn't as nasty stuff as sodium hydroxide if misused. But that's by the by. I agree with you entirely. I had a fairly sleepless night last night thinking about it, and nearly got up again to delete the post, just in case I was talking rubbish. Trying to work out the reactions mentally while laying in bed is not a good recipe for sleep. Anyway, I concluded that because the water is so soft, you would only need to show the water a photograph of either of these compounds and the water would increase in pH in sympathy. However, I am fairly certain that you would need to use both of these in combination to get good buffering, but my chemistry isn't up to working out the ratios or the buffering reactions, which is why I suggested talking to a swimming pool technician. He would have already done it, albeit for different reasons, and his ratios, if not the actual quantities, are likely to be the same.

[Edit] there are two similar threads running on the forum and a certain amount of cross-posting has occurred.

[David Edge]

Hail the salt meister that can write a program for salt additions that really works.

For carbonates, if you know what you want and what you've got, working out the CRS dose isn't rocket science. If you can get your liquor pH between 6 and 7 I think you'll have knocked the stuffing out of the carbonates buffereing power.

The programs work well enough for the other salts if you know the composition of your water on the day and the salt levels you want - and understand the business about hydrates.

(and if you don't RTFM)

[bandit]

Grand Theft Auto......what they hell has knocking old ladies over for bonus points got to do beer

[bandit]

You boys are TDS.... google that

[David Edge]

"The dogs scrotes", presumably.

[bandit]

Ive been away supping and discussing the new brewery with SWMBO but I have to say that your answer is better than I anticipated!! All I can say is that when we open you will have honorary passes plus overnight expenses. We plan for April 2008....are you busy?

[David Edge]

I'll be honoured. Nothing specific planned for April.

cheers

d.

[mrtboy64]

ive just bought some campden tablets direction for use says add 1 crushed tablet to each gallon at the end of fermetation thats 5 tablets but what i read on the forum it says 1/2 a tablet please help thanx

[Jim]

ive just bought some campden tablets direction for use says add 1 crushed tablet to each gallon at the end of fermetation thats 5 tablets but what i read on the forum it says 1/2 a tablet please help thanx

Campden tablets are intented to stabilise wine after fermentation (one tablet per gallon, as per instructions).

Here we use them (or at least 1/2 of one) to remove the chlorine and chloramine from 5 gallons of water before using it to make beer.

[jubby]

I am new to this forum and would firstly like to say FANTASTIC. I have been reading posts for the last few months and I have gathered a wealth of good info. So here I am, registered and all that.
I used to brew from grain during the 1980's with Mr Lines book for guidance. I stopped in about 1990 due to children, house renovations etc etc. I never managed to produce any outstanding beers, some were ok, others were crap. But hopefully I will be able to change that with the power of the internet.
My main reason for writing this post is water treatment. I have been reading this thread with interest, but unfortunately I have gone full circle and disappeared up my own backside! I live near Cambridge. Any tips from local brewers would be appreciated.
While I am here, I would like to thank SteveD for the for the thread on his Bishop's Bumhole recipe. I have not laughed that much in ages. If you have not read it, I would recommend it. If you read this Steve, I would like to request a light beer recipe, nice and bitter with a good aroma. Something like Oakham breweries Bishop's farewell. But to continue with your theme of clergy body parts, may I suggest Reverend's Ringpiece?
I would love to have a go myself, but I am not experienced enough.

[jubby]

Thanks Daab.
I notice you use a filter, but with your advice, I have decided (i think) to use the following method.
1. Put 30l of tap water into my boiler, add half crushed camden tablet, stir then boil for 15 mins.
2. When cool, rack off into an FV.
3. Rinse out the boiler and start the mash (or kit) with the treated water from the FV.
4. Any additional water required for sparging or top up will be from the treated FV.

Might try adding gypsum to see if it makes a difference unless anyone advises against it.
I know this looks like a bit of a long way round, but I would prefer not to use chemicals. I am not a tree hugger or anything, just don't like the idea of additives if they can be avoided.

[Jim]

Thanks Daab.
I notice you use a filter, but with your advice, I have decided (i think) to use the following method.
1. Put 30l of tap water into my boiler, add half crushed camden tablet, stir then boil for 15 mins.
2. When cool, rack off into an FV.
3. Rinse out the boiler and start the mash (or kit) with the treated water from the FV.
4. Any additional water required for sparging or top up will be from the treated FV.

Might try adding gypsum to see if it makes a difference unless anyone advises against it.
I know this looks like a bit of a long way round, but I would prefer not to use chemicals. I am not a tree hugger or anything, just don't like the idea of additives if they can be avoided.

There's nothing wrong with that regime, however it would be better to get some idea of what's in your water to start with before adding things to it. Graham Wheeler has produced a browser-based programme to calculate the additions needed for your own water, if you have a water company analysis (ask them for one, or there may be one on their website). If your water is hard, boiling as you suggest is the right thing to do, but if it's soft, it may be a waste of time and energy.