Skim or Drop lager?

[bloodoaf]

Hi all,
up until now I have always "dropped" my ale into another fermenter after about 36 hrs to leave behind the nasty used yeast rather than skimming as it makes so much more sense. But I have just made a batch of Budveiser Budvar (no not the one from the USA!) using lager malt and a true bottom working lager yeast. It is currently fermenting in my giant beer fridge in the shed at 10 deg c. Now what shall I do regarding skimming or dropping- or do I just leave until fermented out?
I have read Wheeler's books and this point is not clear.
Your opinion would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers, Pete.

[steve_flack]

I've never quite understood the fascination with buggering around with your beer whilst it's fermenting. The only times I've ever tried dropping I've ended up with stuck fermentations.

[BarnsleyBrewer]

I've never quite understood the fascination with buggering around with your beer whilst it's fermenting. The only times I've ever tried dropping I've ended up with stuck fermentations.

Me too, I've tried it twice over the years, once disturbed it never seemed to recover, and for me there was no taste benefit.
I say leave it to do what yeast does best, make lovely alcohol!

[mysterio]

Leave it on the yeast until you're sure the gravity has dropped to where it's going to stay, also taste the beer - it should taste good before you rack it off (not like butter or green apples).

[bloodoaf]

Thanks for the help. The consensus is then that most of you would leave to ferment out. I have used the dropping method for top fermenting ale as it was advocated by Graham Wheeler (p.13, Home Brewing-The Camra Guide); he said it was used by the vast majority of brewers as it"not only leaves the dirty primary yeast head behind, but also racks off the sediment on the bottom of the primary vessel.Trub, dead yeast cells, floculum and other undesirable matter is left behind. The wort gets roused and a new protective yeast head is soon formed".
It does make sense to leave the lager untouched as it will be a far slower ferment and as the yeast is working on the bottom it would not be the best idea to remove the lager from it!
I guess I have been lucky in that I have never suffered a stuck ferment despite dropping all my fermenting ales at about the 36 hour mark- lets hope that hasn't jinxed me....
Cheers, Pete

[steve_flack]

'vast majority of brewers' - not so sure about that.

[Aleman]

Vast Majority of brewers no longer do it as the yeast has changed over time . . . Even Morland's yeast (Which Practised dropping) didn't perform well when used in the homebrew environment. A True top cropping ale yeast should drop successuflly, but unless its a 6 ft high fermenter does not appear to.

For lagers, don't mess with it, leave it to ferment cool for 1 day for each 4 degrees of original gravity, after this time rack into a secondary container and start to chill the lager 1-2C per day until at lagering temperatures, then lager for 1 week per each 4 degrees of original gravity.

In theory it should benefit the beer to remove the trub via skimming / dropping from a conical in practice it doesn't make that much difference . . . . . assuming you are reasonably careful when you transfer from the kettle.

[Graham]

'vast majority of brewers' - not so sure about that.

I'm not sure that I said vast majority either; although I must have done. However, a good many did, particularly regionals. Almost every medium sized brewery that I visited did. Morlands, Morrells, Palmers, Brakspears, Wadworth, Wethered - Marstons still do, and lots of others. Can't remember if Gales did, don't think Hook Norton did. Some of the biggies did too. Bass did, until they ditched their union rooms in the early eighties, and so did Davenports and lots of now defunct names: Joules, Simonds, Strongs, and the big brewery at Portsmouth that Whitbread grabbed - can't remember its original name.

Wychwood recently built a separate fermentation house to brew Brakspears, incorporating double-dropping, because they couldn't match the flavour without it.

Double dropping will be mentioned in the new books, because it is too important not to. Some CBA members swear by it, apparently. However, dropping at half-gravity is probably too late, and the wort must be aerated during the drop. Before half real attenuation is probably more like it, closer to three-quarters gravity left; between 16 and 30 hours after pitching, just after the "rocky-head" stage, is probably better than relying on gravity anyway. Brakspears is dropped at 16 hours, some breweries dropped at 30 hours.

Some yeasts, it seems, can't hack it. I don't think I had problems with Morlands yeast (my local home brew shop used to supply it); no problems with ex-Guinness yeast, no problems with ex-White Shield yeast, no problems with the original Gervin yeast. However, if David Edge is right, and the majority of the yeasts available are now bottom workers, there will be a problem. I still have either Guinness or White Shield, but I don't know which, because I've lost the log book that would tell me what yeast I used for what brew, so I have no idea what it is that is sitting on the bottom of my bottles, but I culture it up anyway when I'm about to brew, or get some from the Rebellion brewery which isn't far away.

[steve_flack]

'vast majority of brewers' - not so sure about that.

I'm not sure that I said vast majority either; although I must have done. However, a good many did, particularly regionals. Almost every medium sized brewery that I visited did. Morlands, Morrells, Palmers, Brakspears, Wadworth, Wethered - Marstons still do, and lots of others. Can't remember if Gales did, don't think Hook Norton did. Some of the biggies did too. Bass did, until they ditched their union rooms in the early eighties, and so did Davenports and lots of now defunct names: Joules, Simonds, Strongs, and the big brewery at Portsmouth that Whitbread grabbed - can't remember its original name.

Sounds like a good way of getting your brewery bought and closed...

[Graham]

Sounds like a good way of getting your brewery bought and closed...

It is worrying how many breweries have closed since the recipe book. Many in the last few years. Morland's, Morrell's, Brakspear's and Wethered's went simply because they were sat on millions of quids-worth of prime high-street property. Just greed. Interesting that Whitbread had major shareholdings in all of them, though.

[bloodoaf]

Thanks for all the replies. Graham, sorry for misquoting; I have reread it and I obviously misinterpreted when you listed the the famous breweries that used it.
Aleman, thanks for the advice about lager temperature.
I have brewed Grahams recipe for Budweiser Budvar then after pitching the lager yeast have left it at 18 deg c for 8 hours to start then transferred the fermenter into my big fridge set at 10-12 deg c. The fridge also houses my cornies of ale so I can't really change the temperature too much. Will this be ok to ferment out and then transfer to a cornie to lager at the same temperature?
Is temperature really critical for lager?
Thanks, Pete
Oh ,Graham you mentioned new books! What book, when?

[Graham]

Graham, sorry for misquoting; I have reread it and I obviously misinterpreted when you listed the the famous breweries that used it.

I didn't bother to check. It is the sort of thing I would have said though. In fact, it probably was true of the regionals. It was sort of standard practice - even for the mighty Bass. Probably those using Yorkshire squares didn't.

Wouldn't be true today though. I don't know of a micro that does it - apart from Wychwood, and they are hardly a micro these days.

Oh ,Graham you mentioned new books! What book, when?

Dunno. The recipe book first. But it is the big book that I am actually working on, because it is more interesting, but then only when the enthusiasm takes me.

[mysterio]

Is temperature really critical for lager?

Controlling the fermentation temperature is the most critical part to keep the fermentation by-products in check. If you've conducted this well then the need for a long lagering process at close to freezing is negated slightly, although there will still be a benefit. The close to freezing temps (I usually lager at 0c) is for the physical process of dropping out tannins, polyphenols etc that cause haze. Dropping these out over time will make the lager clearer and make it taste crisper.

[Oscar Brewer]

I've found that dropping with yeast strains that have medium flocculation properties ensures that sufficient yeast is carried over to complete the ferrmentation sucessfully. And I've also noted that highly flocculant strains be they either top cropping or bottom sedimenting types have caused me the most problems, with fementation slowing down considerably.

I also think problems could arise due to the wort losing temperature, which would be exarcerbated on a small scale home system when compared to a commercial brewery. And some yeasts seem more prone than others to go into a dormant mode when when the temperature is lowered by a few degrees.

For the record I've had consistent results when dropping using Y1084, Y1028, Brewlab Yorkshire (1) to name a few; all these strains are of "medium flocculation" and I don't deliberately aerate when I drop. And I'm fortunate enough to have an insulated fermentation cupboard which minimises any heat loss.