AG #4 - what next

[macleanb]

A lager! So Daab you can stop reading now (though I am sure I did notice you giving some lager advice recently )

Want to brew a 5.5 ish lager, and as I hope to get my brew fridge all ATC'd up this weekend I am after a recipe, perhaps somethiong Tyskie-ish?

Also would like to think I could get this ready for drinking before the few weeks that passes as our summer is at an end - any recomendation as to the shortest lagering/conditioning schedule would be greatfuully recieved.

Will probably bottle, unless SWMBO take notice of sad pleadings of cornie set up for my birthday next week!

[mattmacleod]

From memory Tyskie has a distinct corn flavour so you'd probably want some flaked maize in the grist.

Try:
85% Pilsener
10% Flaized Maize
5% Aromatic Malt.

As for hopping I have been using high alpha for my bittering and saving my "noble" hops for late additions. I would go with a bittering charge of either magnum or nugget and then hallertauer or saaz as the flavour/aroma charge - I normally add this about 10 minutes before knockout.

Ferment at about 10C until fermentation is complete (could take 2 or 3 weeks). Since you intend to bottle, I would then prime and bottle, leave for a week at room temp to carbonate, then store cold (as close to freezing as poss) for as long as you can.

[Aleman]

I would probably go with

80% Pilsner malt (Or British Lager Malt)
15% Flaked maize
5% Munich malt (Or Carahell)

Aiming for a gravity of around 1.048

Hops wise . . . Tyskie is Polish???

Probably Lubulin for bittering 25 IBU from a 90 minute addition
Then either Saaz or Hallertau for flavour and aroma so say
15IBU from a 30 Minute addition of Hallertau, and top off with
25g (Or More ) Saaz at 80C for a steep

Ferment with a good reliable lager yeast at 12C, So you need to pitch lots of yeast 4 Packets (44g ) if pitching at 12C or 2 Packets if pitching at 18C and cooling over 36 Hours to your fermentation temp.

To speed up lagering get it as cold as you can . . . -2C brings the lagering time down from 12 weeks to 12 days.

If you want 'exact' amounts for the recipe say so and I'll throw them through Promash

[macleanb]

Thanks Guys,

re Hops - well I am hoping to de-stock a bit, and I have hallertau and Saaz, so would probably use Hallertau for bittering (though they are only 2.1 so its going to need a fair bit) I have some higher alpha target & galena - could I use these for a 90 min 25IBU base and save the nobles for aroma/steep.

I have a couple of packs of Saflager S-23 which I assume meet the bill If I start at 18c - Is it OK to lower this down at 12 hour steps allowing me to fit this in round work, or does it really have to be really gradual?

So once I am down to 12c I am then continuing primary for 2-3 weeks Until I reach stable FG which with lager yeast is quite attenuated? 1007 ish?

At this stage rack? and then crash to -2 for 12 days then bottle (krausen?) warm for a week, then 0c for a couple, or am I better off doing the lagering in the bottle after FV?

Thanks again guys...

[mysterio]

The lagering process doesnt work nearly as well in the bottle as it does in bulk. Be careful about bringing it down to -2... keep a close eye on it incase it turns to ice. I've had no problem pitching warm and bringing the ambient temp down to 10C in the past so the beer is brought down to temp fairly gradually.

[Aleman]

I have hallertau and Saaz, so would probably use Hallertau for bittering I have some higher alpha target & galena - could I use these for a 90 min 25IBU base and save the nobles for aroma/steep.

You could personally I'd go with Hallertau as a Bittering addition given the higher alpha you have . . . If you PM me your address I can get a few g of NZ Saaz in the post (7.6% alpha

I have a couple of packs of Saflager S-23 which I assume meet the bill If I start at 18c - Is it OK to lower this down at 12 hour steps allowing me to fit this in round work, or does it really have to be really gradual?

I just drop it by2 or 3 degrees morning and evening until it gets to where I want it

So once I am down to 12c I am then continuing primary for 2-3 weeks Until I reach stable FG which with lager yeast is quite attenuated? 1007 ish?

Degree of attenuation is related to fermentability od wort, I'd still expect 1/4 gravity so around 1.012 . . . although you can mash at 63C if you want a more attenuative wort. If you pitch enough yeast it should take 1 day per 4 gravity points to reach TG so around 12 days (for a 1.048 wort)

At this stage rack? and then crash to -2 for 12 days then bottle (krausen?) warm for a week, then 0c for a couple, or am I better off doing the lagering in the bottle after FV?

Lager in bulk . . . don't crash it take it to 1-2C for a couple of days then drop by a degree a day, then give it 8 or so days at -2 (or thereabouts) before bringing it back up to 1-2C over a couple of days. make a priming solution with sugar or DME add some yeast (when cool) and syringe into the bottles then bottle. Treat as normal . . . a week or two at warmish temps (12-14C as its a lager), then down to cool for storage.

[macleanb]

Thanks Aleman, might just squeeze it out before winter then!

[delboy]

Lager in bulk . . . don't crash it take it to 1-2C for a couple of days then drop by a degree a day, then give it 8 or so days at -2 (or thereabouts) before bringing it back up to 1-2C over a couple of days. make a priming solution with sugar or DME add some yeast (when cool) and syringe into the bottles then bottle. Treat as normal . . . a week or two at warmish temps (12-14C as its a lager), then down to cool for storage.

Was reading somewhere that crashing it rather than gradually reducing it is fine if you pitched cold in the first place (no diacetyl etc) and that the gradual reduction is only needed if you pitched warm (production of diacetyl etc) cooled it to fermenting temps and then carried out a diacetyl rest, after which it should be stepped down
Thoughts anyone?

[hoppingMad]

I second pitching lots of yeast and add that you should chill to 10 degrees C before aerating.
Aerating this low combined with plenty of yeast should finish better ( faster and lower).

[macleanb]

Thanks again guys...

[macleanb]

Hi Again guys

Right so ATC800 freezer is now complete (though currently in use maintaining a constant ale temp for Ians "Loughton Best") and will be free for use in just a couple of weeks. So continuing with my lager plans.

Thanks to all of you for your suggestions/help - much appreciated

So my next question are re mashing (never done lager before). I live in NE London so medium hard water.

What PH - use Lactic acid/acid malt?
Decoction / Protein rest??
Mash 65 (I usuall go 67 for Ales)
Would carapils be OK


Chers & ttfn benm

[Aleman]

So my next question are re mashing (never done lager before). I live in NE London so medium hard water.

What PH - use Lactic acid/acid malt?

5.3 as normal, I would never use Lactic acid for pH adjustment in a lager . . . trust me overly lactic pilsner is not pleasant

Decoction / Protein rest??

Don't wast your time, there is no reason to do a protein rest with todays over modified malts, the only reason to do a decoction is the traditional way of developing a certain malt profile, it's an enhancement of technique not something to worry about until you have the basics sorted.

Mash 65 (I usuall go 67 for Ales)

Anywhere you like between 64-68C depending on style

Would carapils be OK

Will add a bit of body, can't really be 'wrong'

Of course The question should be raised as to what style you are brewing Lager is a bit of a generic term

Bohemian Pilsner
German Helles
North German Pilsner
Bock
Dopplebock
tripelbock
Maibock
Maerzen
octoberfest
Munich Pils
Vienna Pils
Schwarzbier

. . . . . Just to name a few

[mysterio]

Tripelbock... you made that one up

[Aleman]

Aleman; I taste my liquor after treatment, it shows up when i've put in too much phosphoric (possibly CRS too but i've never put in too much of that), wouldn't too much lactic show up by tasting the liquor before using it ?

The taste profile for lactic is much more pronounced and distinctive than phosphoric, so I wouldn't be surprised if it couldn't be tasted. My only problem is that my water is so soft/low alkalinity, that trying anything based on taste is unlikely to show up . . . but even 6ml in 60 L shows up in the end product I will admit that I didn't actually taste the liquor before using it that time . . . just binned the lactic after finding out its effect

[Barley Water]

I get my ph to the correct level the easy way, I have a big tub of that 5.3 stuff that I put in every brew I do. Our water here in North Texas is medium hard (both permenant and temporary) and because of that it is slightly basic. The biggest issue I run into has to do with the hops, hard water will tend to make hops taste harsher than will really soft water. If I am doing any type of light beer, I only use the most mellow noble hops for both bittering and flavor, otherwise I run into problems.