Dried Issinglass (Cracked It?)

[Aleman]

IG3 stinks of vinegar and rotten fish It is taking on liquid though.

I'm puzzled . . . Is the the southern alternative to tripe? If so do you serve it boiled with onions?

[Graham]

The question is, if the ph is lower than the beer and the IG has dissolved, is that good enough (and better than gelatine) ?

Sorry, I didn't see that earlier. Yes, pH lower than the beer. Beer can be below pH4.

In fact, you want the pH of the finings low enough to maintain them in their liquid phase during storage. You want it to move from its liquid to solid phase in the beer.

Basically, you use an organic acid (Citric, lactic, acetic. etc) to cut the finings and add a dilute inorganic acid (CRS will do) afterwards for the dilution to storage strength and to maintain the pH somewhere near pH2.5 and act as a preservative.

This morning I looked on the Murphy's web site (should have looked at it yesterday really), and they say this: "Fining performance of the mixture may be improved by storage for three to four days at 10° - 13° C"

They also say this, which is something I didn't know: "At no time during mixing or storage should the temperature be allowed to exceed 14° C (57° F) or fall below 10° C (50° F)"

That is a bloody narrow range and an almost impossible temperature to maintain domestically - too warm for the fridge and too cold for ambient. By storage they mean the three to four days' standing period. After that you can store it as cold as you like as long as you don't actually freeze it.

One thing that is clear, though, is that the stuff you have is not the stuff that Brupaks profess it to be on their web site. I hope their instructions are modified accordingly. It is not so easy to prepare as the floc type, although the flocs need an hour of mechanical mixing, so they say. It is only by luck that the instructions that I advocated were appropriate to the stuff that you actually have. Had it of been the floc, the acidification for cutting would have, apparently, been unnecessary.

Ho-hum! A narrow escape there.

[Graham]

I'll have a go at WBs method shortly, I like it because it's specific, I don't like having to measure 1.5g of dried issinglass out though.

I don't think you'll get away without using a "high-speed vortexing mixer" though. Traditionally, without a Braun, you would be cutting then sieving through a coarse sieve; cutting again and the sieving through a fine sieve, and so on. A procedure that would take about a fortnight to complete. A mixer that blitzes the hell out of it knocks about ten days off the process.

If you get away without "high-speed vortexing" then you haven't got pure shredded isinglass, but something that has been pre-processed.

I think the acidified tap water along with following a combination of the Brupaks instructions as well as using cool water and storing cool may prove more practical or maybe to incorporate the organic acid prepare a similar acidic solution with citric acid and distilled water....that'll be IG5 then

I would be careful about that. I think only organic acids work properly for cutting - citric, malic, tartaric, acetic and so on. Sulphurous acid (not sulphuric), works too. The acids don't actually dissolve the stuff, but does something chemically to it to prepare it for colloidial suspension. It is when it is diluted afterwards that the magic occurs. This is why I said use just enough to to cover it. Mineral acid is added after cutting to stabilise the suspension.

Of the organic acids, citric is probably the best bet. Acetic and malic work best, but you have an aversion to acetic, and malic is even more tart. It is the stuff they actually use in salt 'n' vinegar crisps - not a drop of vinegar in them.

The Harris Beer Brite finings instructions are interesting;

silica hydrogel, hydrolised natural collagen (that'll be the fish guts then), malic acid (the ph adjustment) and preservative (potasium metabisulphite),

That is the floc stuff - the powder - being pre-hydrolised you don't need to go through the rigmarole of cutting the stuff. Probably best to use deionised or pressure-cooked water for it so that the malic acid gets a chance to lower the pH enough to hold the suspension in its liquid phase.

[Vossy1]

I haven't forgotten about this thread if anyone is still interested

I am

i'm going to do another test similar to WBs method but using tartaric rather than citric which i'm doing at the moment.

The acetic (vinegar) test didn't do any better than the previous tests like wise it appears the citric version is going the same way.

hmmm

I was going to do some this weekend ala WB's method, prior to brewing next week hopefully.

Can you really see Brupaks stuff being any different from that supplied in bulk from say Murphy's

EDIT I must admit that I had wondered about the use of blitzing in a food processor. That must create a electrical charge, beit equal or opposite

[Graham]

I haven't forgotten about this thread if anyone is still interested, i'm going to do another test similar to WBs method but using tartaric rather than citric which i'm doing at the moment.

The acetic (vinegar) test didn't do any better than the previous tests like wise it appears the citric version is going the same way.

As issinglass should dissolve naturally into these acidic solutions it's my guess that this particular IG has been processed such that it favours keeping properties at the expense of ease of preperation. The fact it requires blitzing may also reduce it's fining properties. None the less it does work but perhaps not quite as well as other issinglass, possibly no better than gelatine.

Next up will be paste which i'll order along with some tartaric acid.

I'm still interested; I was wondering what had happened. If the things you were using are untreated shreds; by that I mean just shredded isinglass, then it is no simple matter to get it into solution. I do not agree that they should dissolve naturally, not in the time-scale you are talking about anyway. They (it?) will not go into solution unaided.

Older references state two weeks soaking in the acid (sour beer or citric among other organics), with frequent rousing. Followed by scrubbing through a coarse sieve. Soaking for another five days with frequent rousing, followed by scrubbing through a fine sieve. Then making up to working S.G. Three weeks plus the proving time!

Shreds are sort of treated by soaking them, passing them through rollers to turn them into flat sheet, and then shredding. The fact that they are much thinner than "natural" and shredded, speeds up the cutting. They are only soaked in water as far as I know, if they were soaked in the cutting acid, they would loose their shelf life, and probably go mouldy too.

Even though the shreds or ribbons cut faster, it is still not a straightforward matter, and they are probably inappropriate for your average home brewer. It is only the blender approach that makes them at all practical. I find it strange that Brupaks supply these without adequate instructions.

I disagree that the blitz buggers up their fining power. Finings suppliers themselves suggest such things. The diced finings that I had, which came from Reddish-Savilles I think, talked about a "high-speed vortexing mixer". Although I can't find the data sheet, I remember the phrase and I repeated it in one of my books. (It was years ago, and I was doing practical tests just like you are doing because I have never trusted shop-bought finings)

In fact, special blitzers are made for finings HERE

The powdered finings are not easy either. According to Murphy's they need "agitation" (for this read blitzing) for one hour. Most domestic blenders will burn out after an hour's continuous usage I would have thought. Not exactly what the Harris instructions say though.

I think paste is the way to go for the average home brewer. Long shelf life and easy to make up. Ready-made finings are totally out of the question for reasons that you will already fully understand.

It is a shame that the lack of knowledge about brewing displayed by the home brewing industry in general, puts home brewers in the situation of using inappropriate materials in inappropriate circumstances. Quite frankly, beginner brewers are often led up the garden path, and it isn't just isinglass, but dozens of other subjects. It is one of my pet hobby-horses.

[Vossy1]

I think paste is the way to go for the average home brewer. Long shelf life and easy to make up. Ready-made finings are totally out of the question for reasons that you will already fully understand.

I'll be giving paste a go for sure.

It is a shame that the lack of knowledge about brewing displayed by the home brewing industry in general, puts home brewers in the situation of using inappropriate materials in inappropriate circumstances. Quite frankly, beginner brewers are often led up the garden path, and it isn't just isinglass, but dozens of other subjects. It is one of my pet hobby-horses.

I totally agree. The thing is, those of us who look to make it a long term addiction, quickly realise this, and then lose all faith in the HBS that supply us.

This in itself is a strange situation, as the longevity of the movement is directly linked to the products that we are supplied with.

It seems to me that home brew shops/suppliers are making all the mistakes of the past.....and that itself leads to an uncertain future

There's a famous quote, that I can't quite remember, that's associated with war, but it's equally applicable to a lot of situations.

It goes something like this

"only by forgetting the mistakes of the past, will we make the same mistakes in the future"

[Vossy1]

I disagree that the blitz buggers up their fining power. Finings suppliers themselves suggest such things

According to the link above, I'm not sure I agree

There is a vast difference between a kitchen blender and the vessel described

[Graham]

According to the link above, I'm not sure I agree

There is a vast difference between a kitchen blender and the vessel described

No. The pictures of vessels are application examples. They don't supply those. They just supply the mixer that sits in the front of the pump, but that's a different mixer.

Page 3 shows the mixer head of the sort I'm on about, and the very last picture shows the mixer in operation. It's portable.

Indeed a portable industrial high-speed mixer, used for mixing chemicals, is very similar-looking to the domestic "stick"-type blenders, including the bell on the end. It's much bigger, of course, reaches to the bottom of a 45-gallon drum, but it looks superficially the same.

[bandit]

Fantastic thread guys. I have bought the liquid concentrate IG so rehydrating wont be a problem but cheers for the heads up on th pH issue. I tried my first batch with standrd RO water and it was a bit thin but it worked. I will now acidify the liquor before mixing from now on.

[Graham]

Have issinglass blitzers come around due to dried issinglass being highly processed now at the expense of performance or would they normally be required, (just a thought). Denatured issinglass will still fine as gelatine, just not as well as non denatured issinglass, could this be the case with todays issinglass that requires blitzing ?

Am I right in thinking that the fining action still isn't fully understood and thoughts on how it works have changed in recent years?

No I don't think blitzing is at the expense of performance. It has come about because these high-shear blenders have been found to work well and knocks days off the process. I doubt if a whisk-type mixer works as well otherwise they'd have been used donkey's years ago.

From the home brewers point of view, as long as the pH is low enough, they seem to me to be capable of making superior finings. The major problem to be overcome is the long length of blending required.

Even the paste requires long blending times. I've just looked at the Brupaks web site; according to their instructions, which for once seem to be a direct reprint of the Murphy's ones, a blending time of up to three hours is required. That's too much for a domestic blender, particularly if someone has to hold the button down for three hours. My guess is that the solution would be to give a lot of short bursts of blending over a longer period. They also mention high-sheer blenders.

For years most of the instructions on finings packages have given the give the impression that making up finings is like making a cup of coffee - it isn't.

[Graham]

Nice one, just trying to look at it from all angles here.

The proof of the pudding will be to do side by side testing of RFU finings and freshly prep'ed Issinglass which infortunately I wont be in a position to do for some time.

Out of interest, i've just come back from the RW brewery after having a corni filled, I asked them if they treated their water, they Burtonise it for consistancy (they use RFU finings also), thought that may be of interest.

When I had closer contact with the RW brewery, they just used a bit of sulphuric acid to soften their water, nothing else. Unless they know you well, I doubt if they would mention the sulphuric - impressions of "chemical brewing" and all that. Burtonising has become a very euphemistic term these days. I guess that the economics of RFU to someone like them outweigh the powders, pastes and the like. Of course, a batch of RFU delivered to the brewery from Murphys or whoever, in a refrigerated van, is a different issue to home-brew shop stuff.

I'll have to revisit Ringwood sometime soon. Went down there a couple of years ago, but most of my old muckers have moved on, and things are quite different to the 90s. It is amazing how much a small town can change in such a short period of time. It's lost most of its charm.

I had my 40th birthday bash at the Railway pub. I left my car overnight for obvious reasons, and came back the following evening to collect it. During the day some wag of a lorry driver filled the car to the brim with ping-pong balls, through the sun-roof which I'd left open. I didn't notice and opened the door. Whoosh! ping-pong balls everywhere. I had good times down there. Miss it a lot.

[SiHoltye]

You have the brewery fill your corni's for you???
Lazy git, what kind of an example are you setting!
(Was it Boondoggle, I like Boondoggle )

[Graham]

You have the brewery fill your corni's for you???
Lazy git, what kind of an example are you setting!
(Was it Boondoggle, I like Boondoggle )

He didn't say what it was filled with though! Could have been yeast.

[WallyBrew]

I was going to do some this weekend ala WB's method, prior to brewing next week hopefully.

Do not use my method if your starting material is the same as Daab's

My method comes from a supplier of "quality" swim bladders and isinglass (sturgeon) and it is indeed as easy as "making a cup of coffee" though coffee from beans at sub 20C could take weeks to make.

IMO this material "blitzed" or otherwise will never make good finings.

Perhaps Brupaks or others could come up with something better

[Graham]

A very nice bunch of blokes though, i'd imagine they'd be good chaps to go drinking with. (the chemist was very accomadating also, she skimmed the yeast fresh for me while I waited )

Usually the Inn On the Furlong while the last half of the three-hour sparge is taking place. Nothing much for the brewer to do for a couple of hours, and they could get their free 'lowance at the Inn. Dunno if they still do it though.

They didn't have a chemist in the old days. The lab was a cupboard with a microscope and a Lovibond comparator (for water treatment).