Experience with Belgian candi syrup?

[oblivious]

Hi all

Just seeing if anyone has any experience of Belgian candi syrup?

I am planning to make a Belgian a light dubble or Enkel (single) with an O.G. 1.052-55 in the autumn and I was planning on using some Belgian candi syrup. I was wondering can I replace all my sugar (approximately 10% or so ) with it or is it best to cut it with some ordinary sugar if its not fully fermentable?

Any help would be appreciated

Thanks

[Barley Water]

I have played with the liquid Belgian candi sugar and so far, my experience has been pretty good with it. I am not sure I would replace all my sugar with it though for three reasons:

1. It is pretty expensive, I want to say it cost me about $8 US for a small bottle

2. My understanding is that since it is carmelized I am not sure how fermentable it is. You might end up with a very cloying beer if you use alot

3. It is also pretty dark and using alot may get your beer darker than you are targeting

Ok, now for my disclaimer, I have been using this stuff in my attempt at a dubbel and so far, I am not yet happy with the results. The beer has been ok but I really want those rummy, currant, plumb like flavors that the better examples exhibit. I have also been screwing around with a few other odd ball ideas while working on this style. I like to use jaggery, you can easily find it at the local Indian markets around here in great big chunks. I have also added raisins but have not yet tried carmelizing them which may be why I still can not get the neat rummy taste I am looking for. I also have some date syrup which I have not yet tried using. Somebody on this forum was messing with it but I never saw any discussion concerning how well it worked out. Finally, I have been using the Chimay yeast and perhaps maybe that is not the best choice. I notice that Jamil Z is using one of the other strains so maybe I need to switch.

I am very interested in this style and any help would be greatly appreciated. I plan to do an Octoberfest this weekend just so I can get the lagering started for the fall. After that, I am starting my Belgian phase which will include a Dubbel as well as a Saison and also a Belgian Pale ale. I would also like to develop a "Leffe like" blond but have not yet tried one of those. So many beers to brew, so little time and also capacity constraints, life can be difficult at times.

[steve_flack]

Hi all

Just seeing if anyone has any experience of Belgian candi syrup?

I am planning to make a Belgian a light dubble or Enkel (single) with an O.G. 1.052-55 in the autumn and I was planning on using some Belgian candi syrup. I was wondering can I replace all my sugar (approximately 10% or so ) with it or is it best to cut it with some ordinary sugar if its not fully fermentable?

Any help would be appreciated

Thanks

Singles are usually pale beers so dark candi would be out of place. In the Trappist breweries they are usually just pilsner malt and well attenuated. I recently made one with pilsner, aromatic and a small amount of sugar (4%) that came out quite well. In my case the sugar was sucrose and was there to improve the attenuation.

From my experience using the Brouwland syrup in dubbels you would perhaps be better using a mixture of sucrose/candi syrup. I recently did one with just candi syrup and I think it was a little too much. Having said that, if you're aiming at a lower gravity, maybe you should use less sugar in total and just use the syrup?

Following up on what BW said, I used the Chimay yeast in both an Enkel and a dubbel. I think it suits the Enkel more than the Dubbel and perhaps the Westmalle strain would be better in the double. My Enkel tastes a bit like Leffe-Lite.

[agentgonzo]

Slight tangent, but hopefully useful here. I've seen some instructions on making Belgian candy sugar (or approximation) by making invert sugar with citric acid and then caramelising it. Anyone done this and know what the differences are and how it compares to the real stuff?

[steve_flack]

I bought mine. One of the problems I've seen reported with homemade dark candi is a lack of attenuation. I can't say I had that problem using the shop bought stuff.

[oblivious]

Singles are usually pale beers so dark candi would be out of place. In the Trappist breweries they are usually just pilsner malt and well attenuated. I recently made one with pilsner, aromatic and a small amount of sugar (4%) that came out quite well. In my case the sugar was sucrose and was there to improve the attenuation..

Its not really a single I just want to try the syrup in a recipe for a dubbel but with a lower O.G. so the alcohol wont effect the viability of the yeast, as i want to harvest them form a bigger beer later.

[oblivious]

Slight tangent, but hopefully useful here. I've seen some instructions on making Belgian candy sugar (or approximation) by making invert sugar with citric acid and then caramelising it. Anyone done this and know what the differences are and how it compares to the real stuff?

The syrup is different to the rock candi, I believe the syrup is a by product of the rock candi production

[oblivious]

double post!

[oblivious]

I like to use jaggery, you can easily find it at the local Indian markets around here in great big chunks. I have also added raisins but have not yet tried carmelizing them which may be why I still can not get the neat rummy taste I am looking for. I also have some date syrup which I have not yet tried using. Somebody on this forum was messing with it but I never saw any discussion concerning how well it worked out.

That was me , it worked out ok but was lacking something

Finally, I have been using the Chimay yeast and perhaps maybe that is not the best choice. I notice that Jamil Z is using one of the other strains so maybe I need to switch.

I think that was Rochefort yeast maybe?

So many beers to brew, so little time and also capacity constraints, life can be difficult at times.

Keep us post on how the Belgians get on, especially if you are using the syrup

[piet_v]

It is pretty expensive, I want to say it cost me about $8 US for a small bottle

2. My understanding is that since it is carmelized I am not sure how fermentable it is. You might end up with a very cloying beer if you use alot

The beer has been ok but I really want those rummy, currant, plumb like flavors that the better examples exhibit.

Most belgian brewers use ordinary sugars nowadays - they too have to be cost effective.

Candy sugar comes close to 100% fermentable (white amber as well as brown)

Try using Special B malt for obtaining those flavours

[oblivious]

Most belgian brewers use ordinary sugars nowadays - they too have to be cost effective.

Candy sugar comes close to 100% fermentable (white amber as well as brown)

True an especially no point in using clear syrup in something like a triple or strong golden if table sugar will suffice. Also a number use dry yeast as well.

But the like of Rochefort and Westvleteren do the syrup. But again this is the syrup and not the rock sugar.

Try using Special B malt for obtaining those flavours

Well documented that it won't do it on its own, an it really only used commercially by American brewers to emulate Belgian beers

[timmydog]

It is pretty expensive, I want to say it cost me about $8 US for a small bottle

Most belgian brewers use ordinary sugars nowadays - they too have to be cost effective.

Candy sugar comes close to 100% fermentable (white amber as well as brown)

One of the reasons (so I hear) that brewers use candi sugar is that it stops the yeast from having to produce invertase (an enzyme needed to break down sucrose) which can leave a taste in the beer.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candi_sugar. It also contains instructions for making your own.

Disclaimer - I wrote the wikipedia page (although it's been edited slightly).

Tim

[steve_flack]

I think a major reason is that it's cheap (to them) and does the job they want.

I think that entire invertase theory is bollocks IMO. It's like saying you can taste beta amylase.

[timmydog]

I think a major reason is that it's cheap (to them) and does the job they want.

I think that entire invertase theory is bollocks IMO. It's like saying you can taste beta amylase.

Yes, agreed; however, I still want to give it a try at some point.

My current brewing philosophy is to try different ingredients in a not-really-but-sort-of controlled way, i.e. lager malt + one of aromatic malt, amber malt, chocolate malt, crystal malt, etc in an attempt to educate my palette.

I think that you're right and I won't be able to taste the invertase, but it will be fun trying.

[TC2642]

I would definately go with the Westmalle strain for a Dubbel, the last one I made (using dark candi sugar) had some lovely rounded plum notes.