Of course, one of the benefits of HERMS is the recirculation in order to clarify the wort. I think you're describing pumping hot water through the coil to heat the mash tun for a stepped mash. Or have I missed something?/Phil.
Counterflow cooler HERMS system
-
Seveneer
-
Zebra
-
Seveneer
Hi Zebra,
I'm at work too
If you have the coil, the HLT and a pump to pump the water I think you'd be better off putting the coil in the HLT and pumping wort through it. It's a tried and tested methed.
BTW, my boss came over about an hour ago when I first started replying to you and laughed his head off when he saw what I was doing. He used to brew too
/Phil.
I'm at work too
If you have the coil, the HLT and a pump to pump the water I think you'd be better off putting the coil in the HLT and pumping wort through it. It's a tried and tested methed.
BTW, my boss came over about an hour ago when I first started replying to you and laughed his head off when he saw what I was doing. He used to brew too
/Phil.
-
Zebra
I was still sat at home! Anyway, since then I've been to Manchester and Leeds and I'm now sitting in my sister's house in London - the only reason I'm looking at a computer is to pay the congestion charge. However, I had to have a look at this addictive forum!!!
To your sugestion - the thing is, I won't have any wort to pump because I want to raise the mash temperature pre sparging. I'm now going to have a bottle of my sisters BOUGHT!!!!!! beer (how quaint).
To your sugestion - the thing is, I won't have any wort to pump because I want to raise the mash temperature pre sparging. I'm now going to have a bottle of my sisters BOUGHT!!!!!! beer (how quaint).
-
Seveneer
-
Zebra
-
BlightyBrewer
-
Seveneer
Thanks BB. I stuck the website together in about an hour one night just to get something there. I still need to do a lot of work on it.
I'm really pleased you could understand it. I have read many sites about HERMS and RIMS, in preparation for building my system, and I found some of them far more technical than they need to be.
I have a degree in electronics and have studied PID control, admittedly a few years ago, and it bugs me that people with these systems seem to want to explain the fundamental mathematics behind the PID controller when you can press a couple of buttons and they'll set themselves up.
My ethos is, keep it real simple and people can actually use the information. I'll be working on the site soon to make it more complete so give it a week or two and have another look. I'll be putting more info on how I chose the parts I used and I'll probably do an illustrated brew day showing some of the cynics how easy and labour free it is to brew on HERMS.
Thanks again for your comments.
/Phil.
I'm really pleased you could understand it. I have read many sites about HERMS and RIMS, in preparation for building my system, and I found some of them far more technical than they need to be.
I have a degree in electronics and have studied PID control, admittedly a few years ago, and it bugs me that people with these systems seem to want to explain the fundamental mathematics behind the PID controller when you can press a couple of buttons and they'll set themselves up.
My ethos is, keep it real simple and people can actually use the information. I'll be working on the site soon to make it more complete so give it a week or two and have another look. I'll be putting more info on how I chose the parts I used and I'll probably do an illustrated brew day showing some of the cynics how easy and labour free it is to brew on HERMS.
Thanks again for your comments.
/Phil.
-
Vossy1
I've been reading into the HERMS system and the info in this topic. I'm going to touch on Matt's idea's but need some advice.
I'm thinking of using my cfc as a heat exchanger, using a central heating pump to recirculate water from my LT, and my flo pump to recirculate the runnings.
A couple of questions
The central heating pumps flow rate will far exceed the flo pumps 4ltr/min, even so, in your opionions, will this form of heat exchange be efficient enough?
As the liquor in the LT will be used for sparging, will it be safe to use a CH pump?
Would it be better to use a coil of copper in the LT and run the wort directly through that, therefore only using the pump I already have?
I'm not sure I'm too keen on this idea. I'm worried the copper in the LT will impart a flavour to the liquor.
I don't have any space for a rigid set up at the mo but spurred on by seveneer I would like to come to a compromise.
If I can attach the CH pump to the other side of the cfc above I will have a compact unit which I can store easily and bring out as needed.
Can anyone see any problems with this idea.
Cheers
I'm thinking of using my cfc as a heat exchanger, using a central heating pump to recirculate water from my LT, and my flo pump to recirculate the runnings.
A couple of questions
The central heating pumps flow rate will far exceed the flo pumps 4ltr/min, even so, in your opionions, will this form of heat exchange be efficient enough?
As the liquor in the LT will be used for sparging, will it be safe to use a CH pump?
Would it be better to use a coil of copper in the LT and run the wort directly through that, therefore only using the pump I already have?
I'm not sure I'm too keen on this idea. I'm worried the copper in the LT will impart a flavour to the liquor.
I don't have any space for a rigid set up at the mo but spurred on by seveneer I would like to come to a compromise.
If I can attach the CH pump to the other side of the cfc above I will have a compact unit which I can store easily and bring out as needed.
Can anyone see any problems with this idea.
Cheers
-
Seveneer
Hi Vossy,
I don't see any problem with you doing what you're considering but I can see that you're adding another variable that will need controlling; the flow rate of the hot water. You'll need to balance the flow of the wort with the heat of the HLT with the flow of the hot water in order to give the required wort temperature at the entry back into the MLT. I'm sure this won't be a problem but it's obviously another variable over the alternative of recirculating the wort through a coil in the HLT; HLT temperature and flow of wort only.
As regards the space to house the equipment and coming to a compromise, before I assembled my system I tried all the electronics and pumps etc on my old cooler MLT and plastic boiler system for about 5 batches to make sure the theory was feasible. It's quite possible to make a system with this kind of functionality that can be packed away after the brew day. Then, if your situation changes and you want to go stainless and more permanent you have all the bits to do this quickly and simply.
/Phil.
I don't see any problem with you doing what you're considering but I can see that you're adding another variable that will need controlling; the flow rate of the hot water. You'll need to balance the flow of the wort with the heat of the HLT with the flow of the hot water in order to give the required wort temperature at the entry back into the MLT. I'm sure this won't be a problem but it's obviously another variable over the alternative of recirculating the wort through a coil in the HLT; HLT temperature and flow of wort only.
As regards the space to house the equipment and coming to a compromise, before I assembled my system I tried all the electronics and pumps etc on my old cooler MLT and plastic boiler system for about 5 batches to make sure the theory was feasible. It's quite possible to make a system with this kind of functionality that can be packed away after the brew day. Then, if your situation changes and you want to go stainless and more permanent you have all the bits to do this quickly and simply.
/Phil.
-
Vossy1
Hi Phil, I'm sort of swinging between idea's.
I'm also thinking of a heat exchange system like yours as it's so simple.
I've just been looking at the Hop + Grape website and they do a temperature control unit for £54 inc temp probe.
The problem is that the controller is only rated to 8 amps max and my elements are 10 amps.
I'm going to be using my thermo box tun with the lid on so the element won't have to work that hard to maintain temperature, so could I get away with it....I'm not sure.
I've also had a look at the pid controller that you've used. I'm o.k with electrics but I think the pid option is beyond my capabilities
I'm also thinking of a heat exchange system like yours as it's so simple.
I've just been looking at the Hop + Grape website and they do a temperature control unit for £54 inc temp probe.
The problem is that the controller is only rated to 8 amps max and my elements are 10 amps.
I'm going to be using my thermo box tun with the lid on so the element won't have to work that hard to maintain temperature, so could I get away with it....I'm not sure.
I've also had a look at the pid controller that you've used. I'm o.k with electrics but I think the pid option is beyond my capabilities
-
Seveneer
Hi Vossy,
the heat exchanger is, as you say, simple. Mine copes well with a non-insulated, 100 litre mash tun mashing 14kg of grain. Amazing really when there's so little copper in it.
If you want to use the controller you mention you could use it to drive the solid state relay which in turn drives the element(s) but then you're starting to get to the point where a PID controller would be no more difficult. Either way will get the job done.
There's really nothing complicating about the PID controller. For our application you need to connect the following...
240V Live
240V Neutral
Thermocouple +
Thermocouple -
SSR +
SSR -
And that's it. Power, input and output
Then you start your mash, press the up or down button to set the temperature and away it goes. The first time you use it you'll need to set a parameter to tell it what kind of thermocouple you have and then tell it to self tune. It's really that straight forward and they come with instructions.
You shouldn't be put off by claims on some web pages that you need to know the ins and outs of the algorithm in order to tune the PID device manually. For our application you can rely on the self tune no problem at all
Hope this helps.
/Phil.
the heat exchanger is, as you say, simple. Mine copes well with a non-insulated, 100 litre mash tun mashing 14kg of grain. Amazing really when there's so little copper in it.
If you want to use the controller you mention you could use it to drive the solid state relay which in turn drives the element(s) but then you're starting to get to the point where a PID controller would be no more difficult. Either way will get the job done.
There's really nothing complicating about the PID controller. For our application you need to connect the following...
240V Live
240V Neutral
Thermocouple +
Thermocouple -
SSR +
SSR -
And that's it. Power, input and output
Then you start your mash, press the up or down button to set the temperature and away it goes. The first time you use it you'll need to set a parameter to tell it what kind of thermocouple you have and then tell it to self tune. It's really that straight forward and they come with instructions.
You shouldn't be put off by claims on some web pages that you need to know the ins and outs of the algorithm in order to tune the PID device manually. For our application you can rely on the self tune no problem at all
Hope this helps.
/Phil.
-
Vossy1
Hi Phil,
I spoke to the chap on e-bay with regards to the pid controller yesterday and can get one for £12.50 + p+p
Who did you source your thermocouples and ssr through Phil, if you don't mind me asking.
Do you run your pump and element through the same ssr ?
I don't see the point in buying the hop and grapes and then having to modify it. Plus it starts to get expensive then!
Thanks for all the help
I spoke to the chap on e-bay with regards to the pid controller yesterday and can get one for £12.50 + p+p
Who did you source your thermocouples and ssr through Phil, if you don't mind me asking.
Do you run your pump and element through the same ssr ?
I don't see the point in buying the hop and grapes and then having to modify it. Plus it starts to get expensive then!
Thanks for all the help
-
Seveneer
Hi Vossy,
SSR and thermocouple from RS (#2509253871 for the SSR and I'll look for the number for the thermocouple later).
The pump is controlled by my finger on a switch
. I recirculate the wort constantly through the mash.
The SSR is just a relay and will control one circuit. You wouldn't want to control the pump with the same PID controller as the element.
At the moment the heat exchanger is the only part of the system that's controlled by PID but I'll soon be controlling the HLT when I get around to it.
/Phil.
SSR and thermocouple from RS (#2509253871 for the SSR and I'll look for the number for the thermocouple later).
The pump is controlled by my finger on a switch
. I recirculate the wort constantly through the mash. The SSR is just a relay and will control one circuit. You wouldn't want to control the pump with the same PID controller as the element.
At the moment the heat exchanger is the only part of the system that's controlled by PID but I'll soon be controlling the HLT when I get around to it.
/Phil.
-
Vossy1
