Boil vigour and haze

[Ianb]

Afternoon all.

I've not been around much recently through work commitments, but I did manage to sample a few, ahem, gallons of various brews this weekend which varied in age from three weeks to two months.

There was one common theme to all the beers (which all tasted fine) and that was none of them were clear.

I have fined the cornies using isinglass (the pot of paste is about three months old, kept in the fridge, and I make it up fresh for each cornie). Even with this, they're not close to clear.

I'm now searching for clues. Liquor is treated with half a campden per twenty five litres.

Luckily,with no other treatment, mash ph is 5.0 or thereabouts, and extraction efficiency seems good.

I've concluded that the boil is not vigourous enough. A nice gentle rolling boil is being achieved, and there's plenty of hot break visible before the protfloc is added.

Cooling is now through two stacked p.h.e.'s. Wort is pumped through using an RG250 pump, and even in "summer" this single pass takes wort from boiling to 28c in one pass.

I know this approach leaves most of the cold break in the bottom of the fermenter, but surely this cannot be to blame.....can it?

Fermentation temperature control holds the temperature within less than a degree, and for 24 hours minimum before racking to cornie, the chillers run full time to get the beer as cold as possible to try and encourage the yeast to drop out of suspension.

Yeasts are usually either S04 or Nottingham.

I welcome your opinions.

[babalu87]

Are you ramping up the temperature with the S-04?

From initial fermentation temps, I ramp it up 10 degrees (Fahrenheit) towards the end so it can clean up after itself.

[christhebrewer]

I'm not sure that the coldbreak in the FV would cause this - loads of people use CFCs and PHE's and still manage to brew clear ale.

I've noticed that the Yorkshire Water report shows that the calcium levels for your area is low (12mg/l) - may be worth chucking in a spoonful or Gypsum to the boil to aid with hotbreak?

I'd also look at all the usual stuff - quality of your grain (has this just started happening?), has the mash converted fully etc

[maxashton]

Could be chill haze. You cold try using polyklar a couple of hours before* you add your isinglass.

[BillyBrewer]

Mash temp too high?

[Aleman]

I think Chris has it right, What is your water treatment? If you have a low calcium then its possible that you are getting a poor hot break (It may not be apparent however), and this shows as a haze in the finished beer. Ideally you need the Calcium to be raised to at least 50ppm but preferrably up to 100 or even 150ppm.

[Oggy' Bar]

I can offer no advice on this but my experience is as follows:

I use a CFC. All my early brews had a significant quantity of material entering the fermenter.....All those brews (including IPAs) were crystal clear.

On 2 occasions with those brews, I had 1 element failures (ie I boiled with only one element...slow rolling boil) and result was perfectly clear.

Recently, I have concentrated on reducing the particulate in the fermenter:-
re-circ wort through mash tun until virtually clear. (This appears to have no affect on quantity of particulate material in boiled & cooled wort). Re-circ boiled wort through CFC and hop bed several times (temp approx 22C) Pump wort to fermentation vessel fermentation complete 4-5 days...leave for 10. Carefully drain off into cornie leaving all trub/yeast behind.

Result.....Hazy beer.

Repeated above...used isinglass (liquid)... result hazy beer.

Returned to original method....lots of carry over particulate into fermenter...result...perfectly clear beer.

Guess which method I'll be using in future.

[Ianb]

Hi all

Thanks for the answers, replies follow

Are you ramping up the temperature with the S-04?

From initial fermentation temps, I ramp it up 10 degrees (Fahrenheit) towards the end so it can clean up after itself.

Hi B. Fermentation temp sits somewhere around 19c throughout, and then is dropped as quickly as possible to about 3c. I never thought about increasing the temperature....

I'm not sure that the coldbreak in the FV would cause this - loads of people use CFCs and PHE's and still manage to brew clear ale.

I've noticed that the Yorkshire Water report shows that the calcium levels for your area is low (12mg/l) - may be worth chucking in a spoonful or Gypsum to the boil to aid with hotbreak?

I'd also look at all the usual stuff - quality of your grain (has this just started happening?), has the mash converted fully etc

Grain is from the same maltster (Fawcetts) and is usually pretty fresh, pre crushed that I get from a local micro who have a good turn over. The report for Roils Head states a mean calcium level of 26mg/l, but I can see this is a bit low, so that's one to try, cheers chris!

Could be chill haze. You cold try using polyklar a couple of hours before* you add your isinglass.

I don't think this is it, Max. Once racked to a cornie the ale sits in a coolish place (although it sometimes can get up to 22c) but I don't yet have a regulated keeping cellar to hold it at 12c

Mash temp too high?

Mash temp is pretty uniform, Billy. Usually it sits at 68c immediately after doughing in, and is at 65c by the end of the mash.

I think Chris has it right, What is your water treatment? If you have a low calcium then its possible that you are getting a poor hot break (It may not be apparent however), and this shows as a haze in the finished beer. Ideally you need the Calcium to be raised to at least 50ppm but preferrably up to 100 or even 150ppm.

The only water treatment I use is half a campden tablet per 25l liquor. I didn't think I needed much else with good old soft Pennine water, especially for pale ales etc.

............Result.....Hazy beer.

Repeated above...used isinglass (liquid)... result hazy beer.

This sounds just like my experiences, Og. I think I'm going to have a deep clean and then get back to basics, putting less wort into the boiler, boiling the bejesus out of it to begin with, then dump the lot, CB and all into the fermenter and see how that goes

Cheers for the replies so far, Chaps

[Vossy1]

Ianb, I can personally say from experience that your problem may be calcium deficiency as I suffered the same problem and mine was cured with calcium additions.
The calcium aids the yeast in floccing, without it, or in low quantities, your flogging a dead horse. I tried all manner of finings, but as soon as I treated my water for calcium, the problem went away.

Try Grahams mineral calculator for the additions. They don't need to be VERY accurate, just in the general ball park

Ps...my soft water is 7.92 mg/ltr on average according to my report.

[Oggy' Bar]

Ianb, I can personally say from experience that your problem may be calcium deficiency as I suffered the same problem and mine was cured with calcium additions.

It's likely you have the same water as me Vossy (from the lake district) with bugger all minerals in it but a good mash pH.(5.2)

I'll give the calcium addition a go too...It would be nice to achieve consistency.

[Vossy1]

It's likely you have the same water as me Vossy (from the lake district) with bugger all minerals in it but a good mash pH.(5.2)

Yep, it's from the lake district ...sod all innit

I took the average value from my water report to give me the mineral additions I need from Grahams calculator, and my beers, and clarity, have improved no-end

[Buzz]

Excellent post. Just a couple of points I'd like to clarify;

Since going AG I've strived to get the wort in my FV as clear as possible, leaving the cold break in the boiler. Is there a line of thought that says you shouldn't worry too much as it might be better to have some of the crap go in there

I'm currently treating my water with CRS and DLS as per the Brupak instructions. My last beer still came out with a slight haze - if I were to add a teaspoon of Gypsum for good measure, would I add this to the mash or to the boil

[anomalous_result]

Is there a line of thought that says you shouldn't worry too much as it might be better to have some of the crap go in there

There's certainly the theory that it doesn't matter. Someone on here has won prizes at the CBA comp whilst using a CFC, thereby letting any cold break into the FV.

My reasoning is that if it's precipitated out it doesn't matter where it is.

[Gurgeh]

interesting stuff...

I use 'ph5.2' to sort out my mash PH.

my water has around 200 mg/L

Aleman told me that my calcium would take a massive knock due to this lazy way of treating water. how much of a knock?

would I compensate by adding DLS in the mash or would that be screwing up the PH5.2? could i add it in the boiler instead?

[babalu87]

Hi all

Thanks for the answers, replies follow

Are you ramping up the temperature with the S-04?

From initial fermentation temps, I ramp it up 10 degrees (Fahrenheit) towards the end so it can clean up after itself.

Hi B. Fermentation temp sits somewhere around 19c throughout, and then is dropped as quickly as possible to about 3c. I never thought about increasing the temperature....

Give it a go next time
6+ degrees F, helps it clean up after itself very nice and the yeast cake gets so tight it almost needs to be scraped away