Refining a brew

[shaunsm_uk]

Being relatively new to the homebrew scene, I have just completed my 5th AG and so far have had pretty good results but being a bit of a perfectionist (when it comes to beer anyway!) I'm just wondering what can be done to improve things, the brews I have done are pretty much drinkable but there always seems to be something missing, is it just trial and error on a specific recipe?
Also another question, theres always a tang of yeast, obviously not drinking the bottom of the bottle or keg is there anyway to get rid of this once secondary fermentation is complete?
I must say this is a wonderful site with more info you could shake a stick at and has helped me out a great deal.

[Dennis King]

What yeast are you using?

[steve_flack]

I think the things that most improve your homebrew are

1) Being really hot on your sanitation
2) Treating your water to remove chlorine
3) Using a proper yeast for the style of beer and using the right amount.
4) Control of fermentation temperature

[shaunsm_uk]

The last couple of brews I've been using Safale 04 which I'm pretty happy with, one thing I havent paid much attention to yet is water and ph, I always put campden tabs in but nothing else.

[Madbrewer]

How long are you maturing the beer for?
Did you manage to keg/ bottle without admitting O2 into solution? (without splashing)
Do you 'drop' your beer berfore kegging?

When I used to do kits I found if i tleft the beer a month, if i didn't get a noisy or splashy transfer and if i used a wine fermenter to allow the beer to clear before kegging the quality of the brew increased somewhat. These practices I still use today when doing AG. The yeast you are using is a great all rounder. I never find a particularly 'yeasty' taste when I use it. If I recall correctly, Graham Wheeler advocates in one of his books that alot of the flavours people typically associate with home brew (i.e the undesirable flavours) stem from admitting O2 into solution.

hope this helps?

[shaunsm_uk]

I usually bottle/keg after 7 to 10 days when the SG is down to around 1010-1012
I try to reduce splashing by having a pipe from the tap on the fermenter to the keg or use a "little bottler" when erm..bottling, would it perhaps be better to syphon from the top of the fermenter instead of using the tap as all the yeast sediment is at the bottom, also would it be a good idea to transfer the brew to another container and let it settle before kegging/bottling? Just nervous about the increased risk of infection doing this.
What do you mean by 'drop' the beer?

[PaulStat]

What do you mean by 'drop' the beer?

Dropping from primary FV to secondary FV I believe.

[confused]

I would advocate transferring to a secondary fermenter after 5-7 days. this was the first major change to my technique I made when I started brewing kits. I bought a wine fermenter really to speed up the brewing process, a kind of halfway house between the bucket and the keg, but I did notice an improvement in my beer straight away which I put down to getting the beer of the yeast mat before it can take on any taste from it. Fermentation continues in the secondary and the last few points of gravity drop take place there. A thin yeast covering will form on the bottom of the fermenter but nothing like what occurs in the primary. If you allow secondary in the keg this build up of yeast will be in the keg throughout the life of your beer.

I would not advocate trying to syphon from the top of the fermenter. I tried doing this with a float but with the flow being so close to the top of the wort I got the "bathtub" effect with 02 being sucked in. I stopped it after a few minutes and started again from the tap.

[Madbrewer]

I would advocate transferring to a secondary fermenter after 5-7 days. this was the first major change to my technique I made when I started brewing kits. ... but I did notice an improvement in my beer straight away

Ditto here.

... I stopped it after a few minutes and started again from the tap.

Actually, if that tap is set up anything like mine, its about 1 inch from the bottom and probably usually leaves all of the crap behind at that level? So It's probably at least just as good getting clear beer from here as it is with fiddling & trying to get it from near the top - all things considered.

Regarding the term secondary fermentation I am a little confused. We both agree that we 'drop' the yeast out of our beer using a wine fermenter (thus allowing a cleaner beer to be taken off the top of the subsequent yeast sediment) but I am afraid I need the terms clarified to me with regards to seconday fermentation? As I believe (but could be wrong) that this itself is not a secondary fermentation (until/ or unless extra sugars go in - like priming a barrel or bottle) and although as you say it is indeed a 'secondary vessel' I don't believe in dropping we are setting off another fermentation. Therefore if you add sugars to your barrel/keg you are then getting a secondary fermentation (providing some yeast still exists) I could be wrong here though ... any thoughts anyone?

[confused]

this itself is not a secondary fermentation (until/ or unless extra sugars go in - like priming a barrel or bottle) and although as you say it is indeed a 'secondary vessel' I don't believe in dropping we are setting off another fermentation. Therefore if you add sugars to your barrel/keg you are then getting a secondary fermentation

correct - I should not really refer to it as secondary fermentation as it is really the completion of primary fermentation, but in my case it takes place in a secondary vessel. In fact I rarely use any kind of secondary fermentation, allowing the beer to fall bright in the secondary vessel, then kegging to cornies and force carbonating.

I do have one corny which has been doctored slightly to take a float, so allowing true secondary in the keg, designed to be used when I know I will not be moving the keg. It works very well, but the once I've used it - you guessed, we had an impromptu party and I needed to move it. I ended up bridging to a second, undoctored keg and transferring it via the beer out tube.

[shaunsm_uk]

Thanks guys, I will definitely 'drop' the beer into another fermenter after 5-7 days, how long do you suggest I keep it in there before kegging?
I take it I will still need to add sugar when kegging for the secondary fermentation to take place?

[Scooby]

this itself is not a secondary fermentation (until/ or unless extra sugars go in - like priming a barrel or bottle) and although as you say it is indeed a 'secondary vessel' I don't believe in dropping we are setting off another fermentation. Therefore if you add sugars to your barrel/keg you are then getting a secondary fermentation

correct - I should not really refer to it as secondary fermentation as it is really the completion of primary fermentation, but in my case it takes place in a secondary vessel. In fact I rarely use any kind of secondary fermentation, allowing the beer to fall bright in the secondary vessel, then kegging to cornies and force carbonating.

Primary fermentation abates when the maltose in the beer has been used up by the yeast,
many people rack the beer to a sealed container as the yeast head no longer protects
against airborne infection. This leaves the more slowly fermenting dextrins to complete
the secondary fermentation.

So whether you use a 'secondary' vessel or not secondary fermentation will follow the primary.
Adding sugar as in priming encourages fermentation but it in not secondary fermentation

[Madbrewer]

......how long do you suggest I keep it in there before kegging?

At least 5 days. Usually around 7 days & could be up to two weeks! The longer you do this however, the less chance you have of there being enough yeast for the conditioning/sec fermentation to gas up the keg, not so much of a problem if you dispense with co2 though.

I take it I will still need to add sugar when kegging for the secondary fermentation to take place?

Sugar or Malt extract is required for the yeast to carbonate (condition) the brew. I Know of Some brewers though who don't bother, preferring to put a bright beer into a corny and make sure there's enough co2 in it to accomplish this task. (it doesn't need that much).

[hoppingMad]

Being relatively new to the homebrew scene, I have just completed my 5th AG and so far have had pretty good results but being a bit of a perfectionist (when it comes to beer anyway!) I'm just wondering what can be done to improve things, the brews I have done are pretty much drinkable but there always seems to be something missing, is it just trial and error on a specific recipe?

Yep, pretty much. The general rule like anything is to change only one variable per batch therefore making it easy to ascertain the change. But its always difficult to restrict this when we think we know whats required and launch in with several "improvements" at once.
Much good info above and I'll reiterate plus ad my own bits: temp control means predictable results. eg fermenting too warm means hot alcohols which can become noticeable. OK in some styles and not in others. So need to know your style. Good clean fermentations ie pitching enough yeast, means cleaner flavours. Important for colder fermentations such as lagers. Lagers want two to three times the amount of yeast pitching. Ferment lagers at 9 C for the cleanest flavour. Great care = great lagers.
Keep reading this forum and asking questions. There are other forums as well which lend a wealth of information in a short time.
As time goes by you will want to get into perfecting your craft and we never stop learning. Things like mashing temp to control mouthfeel, fermentability. Crushing your own grains for cost savings and (quite likely) better extraction efficiency. Rapid cooling of your wort to improve beer clarity. The value of good aeration for yeast growth. Saving and reusing yeast slurries. Dried yeasts are great but there is a world of different flavour profiles out there from using imported liquid yeasts ( which can be propagated and frozen, you can develop your own frozen yeast bank ). Using a cold seconday or a cold conditioning phase to help mellow flavours, create bright clear beers etc. Hopping schedules are one of the easiest ways to create wonderful beer flavour profiles, from late hopping during the boil to adding hops when the boil stops, to dry hopping. Learning how NOT to overcarbonate the beer is another good one, so much flavour can be lost from too much carbonic "bite". Understanding how to ascertain how much residual CO2 remains in the beer before bottling. etc. etc. But the thing is you are making great beer along the way and its hard not to Enjoy the hobby. ( I can supply the appropriate link to much of the above if you wish)

Also another question, theres always a tang of yeast, obviously not drinking the bottom of the bottle or keg is there anyway to get rid of this once secondary fermentation is complete?

The yeast "Tang" ? no probably not, without filtration. But a certain amount of it, yes through allowing the beer to sit for a while in primary ( up to several weeks) and/or using a cold conditioning phase which involves racking to a secondary vessel and sitting the beer at as near freezing temp as possible without actually freezing the beer obviously. This will effectively drop out further suspended material plus it will get rid of most chill haze, (the murkiness you get after taking your clear bottle of beer off the shelf and chilling it in the fridge only to discover its become murky) But getting rid of yeast "tang" ( flavour of yeast if thats what you mean) is not going to happen completely IMO. This afterall is the difference with our homwbrewing as compared with commercial brewing and filtration, and is one of the biggest reasons why homebrew tastes better than many commercial beers, IMO. Its the way beer is SUPPOSED to taste .

[hoppingMad]

At least 5 days. Usually around 7 days & could be up to two weeks! The longer you do this however, the less chance you have of there being enough yeast for the conditioning/sec fermentation to gas up the keg, not so much of a problem if you dispense with co2 though.

Just curiuos, Madbrewer, what do you base the comment "less chance you have of there being enough yeast ... " on ? Cheers.
HM.