anyone used this stuff before, is it any good?
i'm getting pretty bored of the amount of time it takes to sterilise and rinse bottles so this seems like a decent solution as it's no rinse.
Chemipro Oxi
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Mountain
Re: Chemipro Oxi
Really 
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I just bought some of this on the recommendation of the guy in the not so local homebrew shop! Furthermore I have just bottled 40pints after using it.
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So, what's the problem with it?
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I will do a few experiments with this- I grow lot's of bugs at work. I can easily see what it is effective against. I have a range of agar, a sterile atmosphere and more incubators than I can shake a stick at.
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Looks like the company is based in Japan. If it was in Europe I could have requested some data regarding it's biocidal effectiveness, but a call to Japan might look a little suspicious.
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I just bought some of this on the recommendation of the guy in the not so local homebrew shop! Furthermore I have just bottled 40pints after using it.
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So, what's the problem with it?
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I will do a few experiments with this- I grow lot's of bugs at work. I can easily see what it is effective against. I have a range of agar, a sterile atmosphere and more incubators than I can shake a stick at.
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Looks like the company is based in Japan. If it was in Europe I could have requested some data regarding it's biocidal effectiveness, but a call to Japan might look a little suspicious.
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Mountain
Re: Chemipro Oxi
Sorry to go into boffin mode, but technically as an oxygen bleach it should zap most if not all bacteria and yeast.
If it produces a 10-15% oxygen solution, it should disrupt the cell wall of most micro-organisms and kill them.
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Sodium percarbonate isn't the same as sodium percarbonate peroxyhydrate.
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2Na2 CO 3(Sodium Percarbonate) + 3H2 O2 (peroxyhydrate) = Sodium Percarbonate Peroxyhydrate.
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It's the 3H2 O2 in water that does the killin'.
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I've been involved with the use of Vapourised Hydrogen Peroxide for medical decontamination. VHP is now the process of choice in the pharmaceutical industry and has been proved to be effective in killing antibiotic resistant bacteria from surfaces in hospitals. It's the latest thing in medical isolator decontamination.
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It's exactly the same principle as the percarbonate but in gaseous rather than liquid form.
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Hence I'm saying there should be no reason that it doesn't work!!!
If it produces a 10-15% oxygen solution, it should disrupt the cell wall of most micro-organisms and kill them.
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Sodium percarbonate isn't the same as sodium percarbonate peroxyhydrate.
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2Na2 CO 3(Sodium Percarbonate) + 3H2 O2 (peroxyhydrate) = Sodium Percarbonate Peroxyhydrate.
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It's the 3H2 O2 in water that does the killin'.
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I've been involved with the use of Vapourised Hydrogen Peroxide for medical decontamination. VHP is now the process of choice in the pharmaceutical industry and has been proved to be effective in killing antibiotic resistant bacteria from surfaces in hospitals. It's the latest thing in medical isolator decontamination.
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It's exactly the same principle as the percarbonate but in gaseous rather than liquid form.
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Hence I'm saying there should be no reason that it doesn't work!!!
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Mountain
Re: Chemipro Oxi
BTW Hydrogen peroxide is 2H2 O2 as opposed a peroxyhydrate which is 3H2 O2.
So the same principle is at work. Hydrogen peroxide is a well known and very effective and cheap biocide. It pretty much zaps anything that needs zapping!
http://www.bioquell.com/resources/BDS-3 ... Y-V5.0.pdf
PS. Wayay, I've never come across this one man.....Paramyxoviridae Newcastle disease virus
So the same principle is at work. Hydrogen peroxide is a well known and very effective and cheap biocide. It pretty much zaps anything that needs zapping!
http://www.bioquell.com/resources/BDS-3 ... Y-V5.0.pdf
PS. Wayay, I've never come across this one man.....Paramyxoviridae Newcastle disease virus
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Graham
Re: Chemipro Oxi
I must concur with Chris-x1 here.
Not very long ago I did a fair amount of research into the bug-killing power of various home-brewing bug-killing stuff , and the concentration necessary with percarbonate, to have any bug-busting power, is far in excess of what is required for its (superior) cleaning properties. As it happens, cleanliness is far more important than sterilisation anyway, which is comfortable, because my lips are sealed on the returns from the lab on certain no-rinse "technologies".
Fortunately, for home brewers, the bugs that affect beer are few and are rather fragile - extreme cleanliness is good enough in 95% of situations. I do sometimes wonder if if certain people would trust their baby's health to understrength ...
Not very long ago I did a fair amount of research into the bug-killing power of various home-brewing bug-killing stuff , and the concentration necessary with percarbonate, to have any bug-busting power, is far in excess of what is required for its (superior) cleaning properties. As it happens, cleanliness is far more important than sterilisation anyway, which is comfortable, because my lips are sealed on the returns from the lab on certain no-rinse "technologies".
Fortunately, for home brewers, the bugs that affect beer are few and are rather fragile - extreme cleanliness is good enough in 95% of situations. I do sometimes wonder if if certain people would trust their baby's health to understrength ...
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Mountain
Re: Chemipro Oxi
So at 4g per Litre you get 250L of sanitising solution for around £8. Which isn't that bad, if you can't be bothered to rinse your bottles.
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Of course the advantage with peroxide based sanitisers is you end up with no nasty chemicals. Water with peroxide, and carbonate and water with Sodium Percarbonate.
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Ps. I used a steam steriliser for my son's bottles.
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Of course the advantage with peroxide based sanitisers is you end up with no nasty chemicals. Water with peroxide, and carbonate and water with Sodium Percarbonate.
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Ps. I used a steam steriliser for my son's bottles.
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mentaldental
Re: Chemipro Oxi
Totally agree. It is easy to get obsessed with sanitisers/disinfectants/sterilisers. Cleanliness is BY FAR the most important aspect.Graham wrote:As it happens, cleanliness is far more important than sterilisation anyway.
In the medical surgical world extreme cleanliness is used as a method of preventing the spread of prion-borne diseases. Since prions are not living they can't be killed (!). Machines very similar to dishwashers are used to very thoroughly clean surgical instruments etc. Although they are subsequently autoclaved research has shown that that majority of instruments are sterile after the washing. If its good enough for brain surgery its probably good enough for us!
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Mountain
Re: Chemipro Oxi
Indeed, basic cleanliness is of course by far the main factor.
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Prions....man, the time I spend getting TSE free documentation(at least we're not talking Kuru), and as for those washer disinfectors, they are the bane of my life!!
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Prions....man, the time I spend getting TSE free documentation(at least we're not talking Kuru), and as for those washer disinfectors, they are the bane of my life!!
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mentaldental
Re: Chemipro Oxi
Talk to me about it.Mountain wrote:...and as for those washer disinfectors, they are the bane of my life!!
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Mountain
Re: Chemipro Oxi
LOL. I have to test a hospital's worth every week for micro-bio and conductivity. The things those nurses manage to do to them
I have worked out I could stick about 8 bottles in each test cycle.....
I have worked out I could stick about 8 bottles in each test cycle.....
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Graham
Re: Chemipro Oxi
So will ordinary common-or-garden fairly-liquid dissolve the cell wall, given enough time, but with any sterilant, to work quickly, it must be able to permeate the cell wall and get to the heart of the matter. You have to get up to the halides for really effective bug-knackering, and chlorine-based stuff is best at it because hyperchlorous acid goes straight through the cell wall and puts a knife at the throat of the bug, and it does the same to spores and viruses. Iodine should be nearly as good in theory, but it doesn't always work, concentration is extremely important, and various other things, but science does not seem to have an answer to the iodine thing.Mountain wrote:Sorry to go into boffin mode, but technically as an oxygen bleach it should zap most if not all bacteria and yeast.
If it produces a 10-15% oxygen solution, it should disrupt the cell wall of most micro-organisms and kill them.
Anyway I have to cut off now - things are going wrong with my computer - really strange things - can this be this be the first time in 25 years that I have caught a computing virus -- I have to do a re-boot and hope that things will return to normal. Certainly chlorine won't fix it.
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Mountain
Re: Chemipro Oxi
I thought the point thread was about 'no rinse'? I bought the stuff because of the no rinse factor. I've only used it once as a trial. Didn't mean to cause such a cafuffle 
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Of course cheap handsoap would work very well too, but would require a lot of rinsing, especially if perfumed
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This is kind of work for me, but....Just for the record, if I get just one environmental growth in 'my' isolators they are out of action. As they have stainless steel parts anything chlorine based causes pitting and rust and is out of the question. Everyday decontamination is with Isopropyl Alcohol via the evapouration process. VHP is a relatively new method, it was originally scoffed at...not quite chemical enough for some.
Now, the stuff I knock up in those isolators gets injected into people....so, we don't want any chemical nasties getting near it. So I have a situation where I have to maintain an environment with Zero bacteria/micro-organisms in a non toxic way.
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I was just drawing a parallel between the two types of (almost) non-toxic sanitisation.
On paper, oxidising bleaches are a very good idea...in practice for brewing, well, I'll find out in a couple of weeks
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Of course cheap handsoap would work very well too, but would require a lot of rinsing, especially if perfumed
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This is kind of work for me, but....Just for the record, if I get just one environmental growth in 'my' isolators they are out of action. As they have stainless steel parts anything chlorine based causes pitting and rust and is out of the question. Everyday decontamination is with Isopropyl Alcohol via the evapouration process. VHP is a relatively new method, it was originally scoffed at...not quite chemical enough for some.
Now, the stuff I knock up in those isolators gets injected into people....so, we don't want any chemical nasties getting near it. So I have a situation where I have to maintain an environment with Zero bacteria/micro-organisms in a non toxic way.
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I was just drawing a parallel between the two types of (almost) non-toxic sanitisation.
On paper, oxidising bleaches are a very good idea...in practice for brewing, well, I'll find out in a couple of weeks
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Graham
Re: Chemipro Oxi
I'm back, after a reboot - worrying though.
Can anyone in the medical profession please put me straight on where Iodophores are permitted (in hospitals) and what types. As far as I can establish from Interweb information they are only permitted as a hand-scrub and then only the alcohol-based version. It is difficult to determine whether the British-based sources are merely recommendations or hard-and-fast rules. There are one or two papers that describe iodine-based problems with female nurses (apparently the problem does not extend to male nurses), and there are some instances where Hospital Acquired Infections have been traced to over reliance on certain proprietary disinfectants (not exclusively iodophores) that have not cut the mustard, as the saying goes.
I cannot ignore iodophores (in any future writings) for much longer without making some sort of statement on them, whether positive or negative, but getting reliable information from British sources is difficult. The trials with iodophore that some kind microbiologist friend and fellow home brewer did for me were not very encouraging, but good enough for home brewing in my view.
Can anyone in the medical profession please put me straight on where Iodophores are permitted (in hospitals) and what types. As far as I can establish from Interweb information they are only permitted as a hand-scrub and then only the alcohol-based version. It is difficult to determine whether the British-based sources are merely recommendations or hard-and-fast rules. There are one or two papers that describe iodine-based problems with female nurses (apparently the problem does not extend to male nurses), and there are some instances where Hospital Acquired Infections have been traced to over reliance on certain proprietary disinfectants (not exclusively iodophores) that have not cut the mustard, as the saying goes.
I cannot ignore iodophores (in any future writings) for much longer without making some sort of statement on them, whether positive or negative, but getting reliable information from British sources is difficult. The trials with iodophore that some kind microbiologist friend and fellow home brewer did for me were not very encouraging, but good enough for home brewing in my view.
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Mountain
Re: Chemipro Oxi
Graham
Off the top of my head, the use Iodophors was limited in the NHS due to it's tendency to produce sensitivity. It certainly got to the stage where so many people were allergic to it that it wasn't a viable hand steriliser in some of my old departments. Soap and alcohol rub being just as good.
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As for hospital cleaning, the old failsafes of bleach and phenolics fell victim to 'elf and safety regulation....cue MRSA!
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The bad micro results with the Iodophor could really only be down to either concentration or solubility!
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Chris-x1
You may well be right about the amount needed- I don't know, but could possibly work it out or do some testing.
I would think that an amount required to produce a similar level of oxygen compared to a proven effective concentration Hydrogen Peroxide would be just as effective.
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So if a 6% H202 soln. is an effective concentration for sanitisation, we just need to work out the amount of H3O2 in the percarbonate that is equivalent to get the same level of oxidation activity...simples! Or Maybe not.
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Perhaps I'll give Star San a go next
Off the top of my head, the use Iodophors was limited in the NHS due to it's tendency to produce sensitivity. It certainly got to the stage where so many people were allergic to it that it wasn't a viable hand steriliser in some of my old departments. Soap and alcohol rub being just as good.
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As for hospital cleaning, the old failsafes of bleach and phenolics fell victim to 'elf and safety regulation....cue MRSA!
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The bad micro results with the Iodophor could really only be down to either concentration or solubility!
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Chris-x1
You may well be right about the amount needed- I don't know, but could possibly work it out or do some testing.
I would think that an amount required to produce a similar level of oxygen compared to a proven effective concentration Hydrogen Peroxide would be just as effective.
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So if a 6% H202 soln. is an effective concentration for sanitisation, we just need to work out the amount of H3O2 in the percarbonate that is equivalent to get the same level of oxidation activity...simples! Or Maybe not.
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Perhaps I'll give Star San a go next
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Graham
Re: Chemipro Oxi
Thanks Mountain.
There is no doubt that sodium percarbonate does disinfect, so I wouldn't worry too much about it. After all, Brupaks sell it as a cleaner / steriliser. From my point of view the issue is what is the minimum concentration that will work. Looking at one of the few sources on the web that mention the use of percarbonate as a steriliser, they are talking of up to 60g/l of the pure stuff, which is quite a lot more than the 5g/l (of the bulked out domestic stuff) usually mooted for cleaning purposes. It makes it quite expensive at those concentrations; even if using the cheap stuff found in 99p shops. However, the 60g/l information comes from a supplier who's interests are best served by ensuring that it is used in larger than necessary quantities, so it probably does not represent the truth.
In home brewing we have smooth non-porous surfaces, and the bugs that survive beer are fairly fragile, so it is quite possible that 5g/l is adequate. It certainly has impressive cleaning properties, which is 90% of the battle. Its bug-busting power could be equally impressive, it is just that there is a lack of reliable information on the subject.
There is no doubt that sodium percarbonate does disinfect, so I wouldn't worry too much about it. After all, Brupaks sell it as a cleaner / steriliser. From my point of view the issue is what is the minimum concentration that will work. Looking at one of the few sources on the web that mention the use of percarbonate as a steriliser, they are talking of up to 60g/l of the pure stuff, which is quite a lot more than the 5g/l (of the bulked out domestic stuff) usually mooted for cleaning purposes. It makes it quite expensive at those concentrations; even if using the cheap stuff found in 99p shops. However, the 60g/l information comes from a supplier who's interests are best served by ensuring that it is used in larger than necessary quantities, so it probably does not represent the truth.
In home brewing we have smooth non-porous surfaces, and the bugs that survive beer are fairly fragile, so it is quite possible that 5g/l is adequate. It certainly has impressive cleaning properties, which is 90% of the battle. Its bug-busting power could be equally impressive, it is just that there is a lack of reliable information on the subject.