Anyone For RO??

[crookedeyeboy]

This is a nice bit of kit for £150

http://www.emwc.co.uk/Details.asp?ProductID=50

[Eadweard]

Isn't Reverse Osmosis how they make low alcohol beers? That's not for me!

[befuggled]

My first impression was £150, b****r off!
BUT,
I am spending a lot on boiling water, only to cool it again before use.
You are the chemist !! What does this give me?
Do I just put all zeros into GW's calculator after this treatment?
Not having progressed from "O" level chemistry a long, long time ago, I don't see how it is going to remove disolved chalk (as bicarb, I think) in just filters?
Do the cartridges need changing every 6 months if you only use it for brewing?

[befuggled]

Thinks...

5L per hour, 18 hours to get 90L, enough for a two brew day.
Would need to supply direct to HLT with some sort of shut-off....

[crookedeyeboy]

It pretty much gives you a blank canvas to work with. Alot of MB's are doing it these days, it means you can have a very rigorous and strict liquor treatment regime that wont vary as you have the control and NOT the stupid local water company!
I think it may well need changing every 6 months but so do most water filters...and yes it removes ALL salts including carbonates, it has a very very small 3rd filter once it has removed all the sediment...if you watch the video my concern was with the slow rate of flow from the tap! Would take a while to fill the hlt.

[befuggled]

That was the reason for the above sum, the video says it can take three hours to fill its 15L tank.
I don't know what the payback will be on saved propane, but I think I will have one! - thanks for the heads-up!

[Scooby]

Why not go to an aquatics shop and buy enough to do a test brew first, iirc it's about 10-12p a litre

Edit, I should have added before you waste your money

[befuggled]

Thank you Scooby and Chris, that gives me a lot to think about!
As Chris was posting, I was putting this together, so please take it with a pinch of salt at least until I have given it all further thought!!

Ah, now then - Scooby, what do you know that we don't!
My simple brain worked on propane saved for boiling the water to remove chalk each time.
This first part is really finger in the air, but I know that 13kg of propane lasted about 6 brews, and I estimate that as much as a half of that was getting from 12C to 100C and boiling for 30 mins. The last refill was about £30 so £15 removes chalk from 6 brews. £2.50 per 25L brew. (About 240L allowing for losses in the boiler and pipe work etc. Cost per L = 6.25p.)

Cost of RO = £145. Cost of refills = £35. Amortise £110 over 5 years, and £35 over 6 months, £92 per year.
Breakeven is 37 brews per year, maybe rather too high, but throw in Global Warming, which the wife is rather good at..., increasing energy costs, time saved etc...
If I use aquatics shop water at 11p per litre, and waste very little at the bottom of the HLT, that's about £4.40 per brew.
So are you saying that this water will make crappy beer??


I should have said that you could drive a coach and horses though those rough calcs!
I think that the "crappy beer" bit has been answered, at least in part, by Chris.
On a couple of points: I am not keen on darker beers. Saifert test kit gives 135ppm alkalinity, Chris, I think you commented on the pic of the chalk deposit I get here.

Many thanks to both of you, I have a great deal to learn yet!

[Scooby]

Admittedly I don't know as much as Chris on the subject but I do know this, at 6.5p a litre the Asda water with the addition of 10g of calcium sulphate will produce far a superior beer than straight RO water at 11p per litre, no need to do any maths.

As Chris said if you can work out the mineral additions and get them in you water RO you'll produce a good beer

[befuggled]

Many thanks to both of you, I will be thinking hard later, but I am busy in the garage at the mo!

Chris, I try to avoid shopping but very much get your point!

[Scooby]

I always do the shopping, on the occasions she does do it I still have to make a list, she always complains about the crowds and somehow forgets the water. I've never caught her busy in the garage either, strange

[Jack Hackett]

If I play Ozzy Osbourne's Ozzmosis LP backwards whilst filling my HLT would that make the water RO ?

[Aleman]

What you also have to remember is that RO water is pretty much pure water . . . that blank canvas . . . but what about all the other elements that are required in the microgram range? Those are removed too . . . ok they should be supplied in sufficient quantities by the grain . . . but what if they are not?

Personally RO water can be used to dilute your tap water . . . but you still need to test your water for alkalinity to know what it is in the first place so that you can dilute it accordingly and then test again. Its much easier to treat with Acid to reduce alkalinity . . . and cheaper than boiling . . . with a pretty minimal outlay.

[leewink]

As with all things, price has reasons.

A few pointers -

RO water is NOT a "blank canvas".

RO water is not RO water, as in universal at any outlet / shop.

RO units remove MOST chemicals, certainly not all, and only a percentage of the whole, NOT certain chemicals only etc, and a 50 quid RO filter doesn't do what a 300 quid one will, as in the percentage of removal.

If you take a TDS read of RO water alone - I live near stansted airport and the TDS read of tapwater was around 350'ish, RO came about 39.

RO followed by DI - basically an RO unit followed by a de-ionising resin pod, WILL remove 100% everything, TDS read of 0, unless your sourcing from a defunct machine.

To calculate cost per litre on a filter cartridge etc isn't enough, RO units BADLY waste water by rejection means, and unit to unit this varies too.

When I used to keep marine fish / corals, I got my RO water by the 25ltr, then bought a DI filter pod and ran it through it for a zero TDS, in other words, literally, water with nothing in, then using a quality salt, this would add all natural elements in there proper amounts.

Remember with RO/DI you will have NO minerals whatsoever now, and I am unsure technically what is needed in beer, even trace elements.

Personally i'd leave them on the shelf, you will or may do more damage than good, and certainly waste a hell of alot of water in the process, at the end of it all, you'll still have to add minerals etc, may aswell add it to tap water and use a campden before boil.

... (EDIT) - there is a link to this machine on page one of this thread, just pointing out my point on wasted water here, this following statement is written below there machine, just a small percent which in total equals lots of wasted water and cartridges every few months.

Membrane 0.001m rating (life Span 24 months Approx) The membrane creates the finest filtration, the treated water is forced through the membrane and any un-pure water is discarded this is generally around 75 – 80% allowing through just pure filtered water to enter the pressurised holding tank.

[andybiochem]

(NOTE - I just made this reply to the other RO thread, thought I'd add it here too)

Hi,

I have a 5-stage reverse osmosis (RO) unit that I bought for a hobby unrelated to brewing (hydroponics as it happens, chillies mainly).

Since I started brewing in Nov 09 I've been experimenting with using pure RO water and tap water for brewing.
Taste-wise I'm not seeing much difference between the two, and I live in a "very hard" water area - East Riding of Yorkshire aka Humberside.

The water out of the tap has a total dissolved solute of ~350 parts per million. This is very high. Where I used to live (Bolton), the water was 90ppm out of the tap. After filtering through my RO unit, the water comes out at ~10ppm... so we're not talking about a completely clean slate here. With a DI resin unit, water should come out as 0ppm, but I don't own a DI filter so can't say from experience.

Waste from the unit is somewhere between 50-60% (i.e. collecting 20L RO water uses 40L tap water), and I collect the waste to put on the garden/rinse brewing equipment/etc.