Haze

[befuggled]

All my beers have haze to some extent or another.
I am looking for two solutions, one very short term and the real answer.
For the real answer, I am going to use Asda water for the next brew, as suggested by Chris and Scooby and then go from there.
Up to this point I have been boiling and going by GW's water calculator. Mash pH (on the ones I have tested) is around 5.4-5.6.
I have brewed with static mash and RIMS, getting crystal clear wort into the boiler every time. Efficiencies, in general, are high.
I have tried re-circulation cooling with different regimes and also waiting to 80C then gravity draining through the CF cooler.
Some have been crystal clear at this stage, only to develope the haze later. (Yesterday's first one came out like oxtail soup!! - pic in Brewdays)

But in the short term, I have Summer Lightning in a FV which has been sitting at garage temperature for the last week and is showing no signs of clearing. It tastes fine, just flat. It was racked (dropped?) from the primary last weekend and auxiliary finings, then isinglass added.
I am going up to N. Wales for a party starting next Thursday and would like to take this, clear(ish) in a cornie.
There will be some people who drink with their eyes, so it would be a bit of a shame keep the lights very low all night....

Any suggestions most welcome!

[Northern Brewer]

You could try and establish the cause of your woes by warming some beer up. If the haze goes once warm, then the problem's most likely protein.

Are you using any copper finings? As a former fan of rehydrated Irish Moss that produced 95% clear beer, I am now a Protafloc convert and produce 100% clear beer despite the fact that I never force cool.

How much calcium is in your water? Many suggest that you need a minimum of 100ppm for clarity. I have 170ppm in my mash, but this dilutes down to less than 70ppm once I've added additional rain.

[Capped]

I had exactly,precisely (etc etc) the same problem. Turned out to be caused entirely by over-sparging,in my case.

[befuggled]

Thank you both!
Before I tried warming up the beer, I was beginning to think that it must be Chris's suggestion of lack of calcium.
As you know, I boil following GW's guidance, adding the gypsum to the boiling water. I was beginning to think that I might be leaving the gypsum behind in the boiler with the chalk, despite vigourous boiling for 30 mins. I have never added gypsum to the mash.

So now i have tried NB's suggestion of warming up. The following are some before and after a trip to the nuker. The haze which did go required considerable heating, probably 40C+.



That is, from the right:
Discovery before
Discovery after
TT Landord after - it was similar to but lighter than the Disco before
Summer Lighting after
and finally SL before (just to confuse things...)

So, the Disco has cleared completely, but at high temperature
The TT is almost completely clear
The SL is significantly better but by no means clear.

So it looks as if I've got both residual protein and calcium deficiency,
Northern Brewer, I have been using either or both Irish Moss and Protofloc - Are the two compatible? I read somewhere that a pinch of Moss helped a protofloc tablet.

Chris, all the beer is currently in the main area of the garage at about 12C. I ferment it in the "brewery" which is temperature controlled with underfloor heating at 20C. I rack (drop) and move to the cooler garage once the ailock stops and the FG is stable for a couple of days.

I therefore think I have some or all of three problems - Protein (I'll try polyclar), lack of gypsum in the mash (I'll add a teaspoon direct to the grist next time) and impatience. I read about others conditioning beers for a week and lagers for months at lower temperatures. I am clearly not waiting long enough to condition beer at lower temperatures!

On the party front - Chris, thanks again for your thorough and well described procedure!
I have been displacing the air from the cornies with CO2 before filling, but this opens up a whole new window.
I never really expected to have any beer ready for this party, but when it came out tasting so good I thought I would go for it, never considering such things as the type of yeast! None of the rest of friends and family who will be there are aware of my latest ventures, they were probably warned off 27 years ago with the previous attempts! Either I will take the best I can for now, and claim inexperience, or wait until xmas when I should have something which looks as good as it tastes!
Thanks again to both of you.

[befuggled]

Capped, sorry, I was constructing the above when your reply came in.

I have been stopping sparging at about 1005 and topping up the boiler if nescessary from the HLT or with raw cold water.
Where do you stop now?

This will probably mean that I now have four separate problems !

[Graham]

Chill haze eventually becomes non-reversible; it is an intermediate stage before the haze becomes permanent. If you chill a beer and warm it up again several times in succession, you will find that the temperature at which the beer clears becomes progressively higher until the haze becomes permanent. At least you know you have a protein problem.

If you have got some time to spare, you might wish to read this:

http://www.practicalbrewing.co.uk/fining/index.html

It's long and rambling and just a first draught, but it might help.


Edit: Corrected Bad Link

[Capped]

Capped, sorry, I was constructing the above when your reply came in.

I have been stopping sparging at about 1005 and topping up the boiler if nescessary from the HLT or with raw cold water.
Where do you stop now?

I stop at 1010 regardless of the temp of the runnings from the MT. There's a thread on here 'Reasons not to sparge twice' which you might find interesting if you've not seen it already. Sorry I don't know how to link directly to it. Ta for that link Graham,will check out with much interest later. I don't have a haze problem at all now,but perhaps I'll be able to safely squeeze more wort from my MT.

[Northern Brewer]

Regrading Irish Moss and Protafloc, I should clarify that my references to percentages related to the number of clear beers, not the clarity of individual beers. Since using Protafloc 100% of my beers have been 100% clear. With rehydrated Irish Moss 95% of my beers were 100% clear.

Because I cool in the boiler I suspect I have a better idea than most, how much protein coagulates out during cooling. In the Irish Moss days there would be evidence of protein, but the wort had a slight haziness (that usually disappeared during fermentatioin. I then learnt to rehydrate the moss in cold water, and the proteins formed whispy clouds within the wort. These days I chuck in a Protafloc 10 minutes before flame out, and the difference is astonishing. The proteins form into gelatinous clouds and the wort is star bright. Give Protafloc more than 10 minutes and the effect isn't so pronounced. I see no reason to mix it with Irish Moss because it works so well by itself.

I usually pitch the entire cooled boiler contents into the fermenter then drop to a clean one once fermentation is away. I don't see any of the re-absorption of proteins that I hear about (but I have no issues without forced cooling either).

Going down to 1005 sounds like serious over sparging to me. Join us batch spargers - you know it makes sense!

[befuggled]

Graham, thanks very much for that link, I don't think it was there when I last looked at your site!
I will definitely be finding time to read it thoroughly in the next day or so.

Capped, I have found and read the thread, I am sure I have been leaving it too long, but have been lucky enough to avoid the off-tastes!
I am getting very high efficiencies, so I can afford to let a bit of fermentable go, despite the pain in seeing the waste...

NB, I had assumed that was what you meant!
The protofloc has been going in at 15 mins, so I will give it 5 mins less in future and skip the IM as well.
I have been cooling some of the brews in the boiler, but with CF re-circulation in an attempt to do:
http://www.mrmalty.com/chiller.php
But, I am concerned that I might be smashing up the cold break as soon as it is formed!
I was hoping to get "a cone of hops and trub" in the middle of the boiler but, for the time being at least, it is eluding me...
(Basically, I am trying to run before I can walk )

As for batch sparging, I have been led to believe that it is some sort of strange perversion best performed at midnight, I bet you had a good time last night!!!

[Northern Brewer]

I am concerned that I might be smashing up the cold break as soon as it is formed!

I have long been fascinated as to why I can, despite all the science and popular opinion saying otherwise, get away without forced cooling and still produce clear beer.

Most brewers would split their sides if they saw my method in action. My main boiler is a 20 litres Burco, that actually holds nearer to 25 litres at the brim. I also have a home made kettle element boiler in which I boil the second runnings, before returning these to the Burco along with the 15 minute hops. The protafloc goes in 5 minutes later and has 10 minutes to do its stuff before power off. All boiling is done either outdoors or in my open fronted garage.

After flame out I fish out the muslin hop bags and fill the boiler to within 1" of the brim with approx 2 1/2 litres of boiling water. I then fit the lid, which I seal in place with a couple of wraps of cling film. At this point I get all technical and point a 15" desk fan at the boiler. I suspect this makes little difference, but I know that the wort, which is effectively canned, will remain sterile and be cool enough to go in the fermenter 5 hours later (I sometimes leave it overnight). As I mentioned earlier, everything then goes into the fermenter with the yeast, but I do drop to a fresh fermenter the following day leaving much of the trub behind.

It could be the case that your proteins are being reabsorbed through agitation, although mine still see some activity during the transfer to the FV (albeit whilst cold). I've read that protafloc's good work can be undone to some extent by giving it too long, but I doubt this is your problem.

My money is currently on oversparging or calcium deficiency. How much gypsum is going in? Did you mention what yeast you used?

[befuggled]

NB, I have used a variety of yeasts including SO-4, Nottingham, S-33 for the Stella, SO-5 for the SL and re-claimed St Austell for the IJ, then 2nd generation from this into Amarillo, then 3rd generation from this into the APA and the Progress. Must have been getting the oxygen reasonably right because eveything takes off very quickly although it is the St Austell which is giving the best crop.
I am going to be simplifying the cooling next to and follow Adm's timing and procedure. Other than that, Asda water, gypsum in the mash, reduced sparging (maybe even batch sparge if I'm feeling really daring!).

[Northern Brewer]

(maybe even batch sparge if I'm feeling really daring!).

(maybe even batch sparge if I'm feeling really daring!).

Again, this is one of those things that people seem to make difficult for themselves.

For my standard 4.5 Kg grain bill I chuck in 12.5 litres at 74C. Once 90 minutes is up I stir in a further 8 litres at 80C then perform the first run-off. Once that has pretty much dried up I stir in a further 14 litres at 80C and perform the second run-off.

It's not exactly rocket science and it works very well. I tend to use the same volume of liquid when varying the size of the grain bill by 0.5 Kg either way.

Edited to correct the second top-up figure from 22 litres to 14 litres (the difference being the 8 litres that I used in the first top-up)

[Northern Brewer]

If you were to fill your mash tun with hot water to within a couple of inches of the brim (before draining anything from the tun) as soon as the mash duration is over, collecting that wort, noting how much is collected, then subtracting that from 30L (assuming a 25L brew length) to determin how much water to add for batch 2, then you wouldn't go too far wrong.

I agree that would work and if it makes life simple then it's the way to go. I got into batch sparging years ago and at the time, the view seemed to be that the resulting run-offs should be about equal in volume (for best efficiency). This is what I 'approximately' achieve with the figures mentioned above, and in the years that have since passed the rest of my brewing process has come to work around the results I get. Grain is cheap and going to great lengths in striving to obtain maximum efficiency is inherent nonsense IMHO I get 23 litres of 1046 from 4.5 Kg, which I'm more than happy with.

[Northern Brewer]

if the apparent complexity or confusion over the equasions is all that is stopping someone from batch sparging then imo they should have a go following that (or any) rough rule of thumb.

Precisely! Batch sparging is so damned easy but somehow this forum seems to make it sound incredibly complicated.

[befuggled]

OK, OK I give in!!

I am having to change so many things, I might as be pervy about it as well

So the wife is going to Asda later today (she is a lot closer - work - than I am, 2 miles as opposed to 17).
My HLT's sight glass starts at about 15L, so a bit of guesswork will be required and she will be picking up 44L.
A friend has been helping in loco QA, and his choice is GW's Arkell's Kingsdown. 5653 gm grain bill for 25L.
Using GW's calclulator, an average between dry and sweet pale ales, and noting jubby's comment in viewtopic.php?f=9&t=27364
about dryer or sweeter profiles, I am thinking a total of:

13.5 gms (1/2 way between 8.4 and 18.4) gypsum, split between tun and boiler
10 gms Calcium Chloride in tun
6 gms Epsom in tun
2.5 gms common salt in tun

Beer Engine says 14.1L mash liquor, but I will lose a bit in the underletting pipe work, so 15L.
RIMS for 90 mins at 66C, then add 7.5L at 80C, drain nearly dry.
Add 21L at 80C, RIMS for a few minutes (just to reset the grain bed) then drain completely.
This seems to be a compromise using your (NB) total liquor (42.5L). Chris, I can't fill the mash tun, its 70L!

Protofloc at 10 mins before flame out, natural cool for at least 20 mins
This, and boil profile as Adm viewtopic.php?f=24&t=27503
Slow gravity drain through cooler.
Drop to second FV after 1-2 days.
Any variations/changes gladly recieved and providing no 'orrible work comes in, this will be tomorrow...