Using Saflager S23 yeast with Coopers Lager Kit

[Manx Guy]

Hi,

I'm going to be doing an experiment using a Coopers Lager Kit and some real lager yeast...

I plan to ferment at 12-15C for 10-14 days (I understand it may take a while to hit target gravity)

I'm just wondering if anyone has done this or used a lager yeast with a kit that doesn't come supplied with it...

The instructions on the packet say just pitch into the wort...

I'm wondering if the use of yeast vit and areating the wort (straight) after pitching is a good idea... ?

I'm hoping to be able to lager the finished brew at 5C for 2-3 weeks which I hope will give me something more like a lager than my first attempt with this kit...

Looking forward to hearing your suggestions!

Slainte!

[kfm]

Manx Guy

This is what Fermentis have to say about their S-23 yeast:

Pitching instructions: Re-hydrate the dry yeast into yeast cream in a stirred vessel prior to pitching. Sprinkle the dry yeast in 10 times its own weight of sterile water or wort at 23C ± 3C. Once the expected weight of dry yeast is reconstituted into cream by this method (this takes about 15 to 30 minutes), maintain a gentle stirring for another 30 minutes. Then pitch the resultant cream into the fermentation vessel. Alternatively, pitch dry yeast directly in the fermentation vessel providing the temperature of the wort is above 20C. Progressively sprinkle the dry yeast into the wort ensuring the yeast covers all the surface of wort available in order to avoid clumps. Leave for 30 minutes and then mix the wort e.g. using aeration.

Fermentation temperature: Recommended fermentation temperature: 9C – 15C, ideally 12C.

I've definitely had better results using a lager yeast than kit packet yeast. I tend to rehydrate the yeast (unless pushed for time) but I don't have a stirrer plate so miss that process out. I do ensure the sterile water (i.e. boiled then cooled) used for rehydrating is the same temperature as the wort (I opt for 20c) so when the yeast is pitched there is no temperature shock. As to fermenting, I've had S-23 go down to 1.006 at 9c. It took 3 weeks mind.

Although using lager yeast and fermenting cooler have definitely improved my kit lagers, I have just gone down the road of treating my water (which is heavily alkaline) and attempting a diacetyl rest. Hopefully the shared learning on Jim's gets us all to lager nirvana.

[Manx Guy]

Hi KFM!

Thanks for the advice!

I will reconstitute the yeast then, I dont have a stirer either but at least I know a bit of gentle stirring wont hurt...

Is there any benefit to adding a little yeast vit either to the wort or the yeast cream?

The local water is very soft, with a slight hint of chlorine... I filter the majority of this out and about 80% of my water I use for brewing I boil and cool

As far as water goes I think thats ok for my needs (for now)...

I did read a post about someone using S23 with a (Coopers) lager kit and asking about a diacetyl rest, the contents of which were duly noted!
lol

Thanks again

Guy

[trucker5774]

From past readingabout lager, the use of a yeast like S23 will help...........although I think Coopers claim the kit has a true lager yeast with it. I always rehydrate my yeast and add it to the wort at a balanced temperature.
As I understand it, fermentation is bst started about 20C then dropped to your desired 12 to 15C. If fermentation is started at low temperature then the pitch rate shout be much higher. I have just bottled an All Grain lager............fingers crossed.

[garwatts]

Hi,

I'm going to be doing an experiment using a Coopers Lager Kit and some real lager yeast...

I plan to ferment at 12-15C for 10-14 days (I understand it may take a while to hit target gravity)

I'm just wondering if anyone has done this or used a lager yeast with a kit that doesn't come supplied with it...

The instructions on the packet say just pitch into the wort...

I'm wondering if the use of yeast vit and areating the wort (straight) after pitching is a good idea... ?

I'm hoping to be able to lager the finished brew at 5C for 2-3 weeks which I hope will give me something more like a lager than my first attempt with this kit...

Looking forward to hearing your suggestions!

Slainte!

Hi
Have you made the Coopers Lager kit before?

[Manx Guy]

Hi everyone!

Many thanks for your sage advice- I love this forum!!

I feel reassured now...

The kit I'm using is a Coopers Original series Lager.

Garwatts, yes made the kit before-it was my first attempt... I followed the kit instructions and fermented it at the warmer end of the range...
While it looked the part (lovely colour, bright with a nice tight foamy head) it tasted a bit cidery... This I beleive was my fault and not the kits...

I put the cidery taste down to the warm fermentation and the use of 1kg white sugar, but I got the other basics right (cleanliness of equipment etc...) so wasn't discouraged

I will keep the yeast slurry and use it to ferment a Coopers Draught and then maybe the Brewferm Pils I have (although I bought some brewferm Lager yeast especially for that)

Slainte!

[garwatts]

Good luck. I was quite impressed with the Coopers yeast. I think it is probably one of the best of the kit yeasts. I had good results from mine although I did use some LME and brewers sugar with a Styrian hop tea.
My father likes it so it must be good
I think their yeast is the same as Richies.

[Manx Guy]

Hi Garwatts,

Dont get me wrong I think Coopers have a quality range, I messed up the first time
and this time want to use a Lager yeast....

I'm using S-23 Really for experimental purposes as much as anything and also in winter its convenient to ferment and condition it in a cold place!

I have a coopers Euro lager which I plan to brew in Jan and most likely will use the Coopers yeast

My fave summer drink is Coopers Pale Ale with either 1kg BKE or 750LDME +250 g brew sugar and a morgans POR hop bag

The yeast compacts really well to the bottom of the bottle and clears in days!


Slainte!

[kfm]

Manx Man, re the yeast vit I don't recall using it much unless fermentation had actually stuck. That's never happended with S-23, in fact it's only happened with yeast supplied with Munton's kits. I follow Chris's advice re pitching lager yeast big, especially if the wort is cooler than you'd anticipated. I've pitched into 12c wort before just due to the ambient water temp being very low, on that occasion I pitched 2 x dry packets of S-23 direct and still do now sometimes if it's going straight to a cool environment to ferment. BTW, Cooper's Cerveza kit really seems to take to S-23; still my best lager to date though I'm hoping the 3 lagers I did last week with water treatment will be better still.

[garwatts]

Manx Man, re the yeast vit I don't recall using it much unless fermentation had actually stuck. That's never happended with S-23, in fact it's only happened with yeast supplied with Munton's kits. I follow Chris's advice re pitching lager yeast big, especially if the wort is cooler than you'd anticipated. I've pitched into 12c wort before just due to the ambient water temp being very low, on that occasion I pitched 2 x dry packets of S-23 direct and still do now sometimes if it's going straight to a cool environment to ferment. BTW, Cooper's Cerveza kit really seems to take to S-23; still my best lager to date though I'm hoping the 3 lagers I did last week with water treatment will be better still.

I'm thinking of trying the Cooper's Cerveza after crimble

[sparky Paul]

I've made quite a few Coopers lager kits with S-23, and it does work really well.

I can wholeheartedly agree with the comments above, the only thing I can add is that I have always pitched one packet of S-23 at around 18°C, it gets working pretty quickly and I subsequently allow the temperature to fall to 12-15°C for the rest of the fermentation. I also make hop additions.

I would also go with the recommendation of the 75% light spraymalt to 25% glucose mix, or 750g spraymalt to 500g glucose works very well if you are looking for an approximation of a commercial lager.

[Manx Guy]

Hi all!

I took on board the advice and have just finished this brew!


I added the 750g DME to my brewing pot disolved the DME then brought to the boil and added my Saaz hops, this boiled away for a good ten mins. Gas off and allowed to cool
I added the sugar and can to the clean & sanitized FV and brought up to a volume of about 10L then rinsed the kit can out with the strained risings of the DME & hops... What a lovely smell!!!

In the meantime I rehydrated 2 packets of yeast (as I noticed the BBE was 12/09!!) left to stand at 20C and it started to bubble well and smelled yeasty (deffinately not off)

I made the volume upto just under 23L

I added this to the wort at about 18c being careful to match the temp by adding a bit of wort at a time to the yeast.
I gave the contents a good paddling and securely screwed on the lid, making sure I got an air tight seal.

By the time I had tidied up the air lock had moved all the water to the far side, so looks like there may be some activity already

I'll keep you posted!

Thanks again!

[Manx Guy]

Hi all,

Just a quick update...

After taking your sage advice, whne I checked on the FV this morning the temp was 12C and the airlock was quite busy!

Result!!

I'm pleased with this (so far) and will try my best to leave well alone for at least 10days when I will take a sample and then agonise over whether to raise the temp to 18-20 for a diacetyl rest...

I'm already imagining what a wonderful lager this will be... lol

Many thanks guys!

[kfm]

garwatts, here's a shot of the cooper's cerveza that I posted up the recipe for in the adapted kits thread. Still the best kit lager I've managed. The last bottles of the batch (about 3 months old) are the only homebrew I've made where the yeast really did stick like glue to the bottom of the bottle and they poured clear as a bell.



Manx Guy have you seen mysterio's bohemian pilsner post in the brewdays section; there's a lot of good pointers there about lager-making. I'm just planning my first AG lager and convinced now to use the W34/70 slurry from the 3 x kit lagers I've got fermenting. What sparkypaul and chris wrote about the glucose element is spot on for me; I did a couple of different kit lagers using just spraymalt and they were not that good. Btw, you're in the right neck of the woods for getting the most out of your avatar

[Manx Guy]

Hi !

Thanks KFM I'll take a look at that thread you mentioned...

I think how much DME or sugar you use is a case of personal taste but I do want my lager to taste lager-like.. not more like a Pale Ale...

I think the ratio of 60-75% Malt to sugar seems about right... I've tasted full malt commercial lagers and you cant drink too many of them!
IMHO They lack the clean refreshing style of a true pilsener...

I went for 75%/25% this time and will adjust accordingly in future...

Fingers crossed this first batch is an improvement on my Last attempt at a HB lager!

Thanks again to everyone who posted advice!

Slainte!