Chalk or not to Chalk that's is the question???

[beer gut]

Hi i have a question about total alkalintey.My total Alkalintey for my water supply is 45 that is expressed in CaC03.My problem is if i want to make a dark ale how do i raise the ph caus as we know dark malts make the water more acidic/lowers the ph levels, my first thought was to add preciptated chalk however when reading the Graham wheeler book he said that you should not add chalk to brewing liqour.So then what do i add caus my the brupaks guide to this is that porters/150 ppm+ in brewing liqour so i realy need to raise the CaC03 in my water any advice would be brillent.

[mysterio]

Chalk won't dissolve in water, if you add it to the mash it will do better because of the acidity (I think).

One easy tip is just to buy a big bottle or two of own brand high alkalinity spring water, and dilute your water that way.

[Tansyman]

Hi,

I too have the same problem, but more extreme, as the tap water in Cornwall has a CaCO3 of just under 16!!!!!! As a member of the Craft Brewing Association (CBA) I've just received the December issue of Brewer's Contact. Tony Barnsley is writing a series of articles about a simplified approach to water treatment. I will be following it avidly and I'm hoping that the issue of increasing the alkalinity of one's water supply will be covered!

I also cadge copies of BYO(U.S. home brew mag) from my local HB shop and the October issue has an article which suggests increasing alkalinity by adding calcium carbonate (chalk) or sodium bicarbonate (baking powder). As of yet I haven't found out what quantities are needed to arrive at the correct alkalinity. When it comes to using gypsum or calcium chloride BYO suggests no more than 2 teaspoons per 19 litres, but I don't know if this applies to the above.

The CBA has a liquor treatment spreadsheet created by Nigel Porter, but it only appears to cater for reducing alkalinity. In the meantime if anyone else reads this and has any suggestions- most appreciated if you can post.

[Graham]

To use sodium bicarbonate multiply the alkalinity (as CaCO3) you wish to add by 1.68.

Adding 168(mg/l) of sodium bicarbonate will raise the alkalinity of your water by 100mg/l (pppm).
It will also add 46mg/l of sodium, but that is not an issue.

Don't use baking powder, that has other stuff in it. Makes sure the tub specifically states sodium bicarbonate.

[beer gut]

Hi i got the quanities of chalk that i use in my brew's from How to brew by john palmer and there work very well for me.I have also used bicarbonated soda in some of my brew's but i would not recomend it i would stick with chalk.

[Graham]

Hi i got the quanities of chalk that i use in my brew's from How to brew by john palmer and there work very well for me.I have also used bicarbonated soda in some of my brew's but i would not recomend it i would stick with chalk.

If you knew the answer to your question, why did you ask it in the first place?

[Graham]

Hi,

I too have the same problem, but more extreme, as the tap water in Cornwall has a CaCO3 of just under 16!!!!!! As a member of the Craft Brewing Association (CBA) I've just received the December issue of Brewer's Contact. Tony Barnsley is writing a series of articles about a simplified approach to water treatment. I will be following it avidly and I'm hoping that the issue of increasing the alkalinity of one's water supply will be covered!

I also cadge copies of BYO(U.S. home brew mag) from my local HB shop and the October issue has an article which suggests increasing alkalinity by adding calcium carbonate (chalk) or sodium bicarbonate (baking powder). As of yet I haven't found out what quantities are needed to arrive at the correct alkalinity. When it comes to using gypsum or calcium chloride BYO suggests no more than 2 teaspoons per 19 litres, but I don't know if this applies to the above.

The CBA has a liquor treatment spreadsheet created by Nigel Porter, but it only appears to cater for reducing alkalinity. In the meantime if anyone else reads this and has any suggestions- most appreciated if you can post.

Using chalk is straightforward. If you want to increase your alkalinity by 50ppm (50 mg/l) then add 50mg/l of precipitated chalk. This assumes that your alkalinity is expressed as CACO3. As Mysterio said, chalk is insoluble and will not dissolve (much) in water; it will simply settle on the bottom of the vessel. Therefore, people add it to the mash. There have been mumblings that chalk in suspension (added to the mash) does not work as well as chalk in solution. I am not sure that I believe that, but to get chalk to dissolve you need to get up to complicated tricks with saturating the water with CO2 and stuff like that, which is impractical for most. There is another issue inasmuch as there are people on here who live in soft-water areas and have tried adding chalk to their mash and it has not worked for them. This I believe is because by adding chalk you are taking two steps forward and one step backwards. Of calcium carbonate, the carbonate raises alkalinity but the calcium reacts with phosphates and reduces the alkalinity. It is pulling in two directions at once. Although the carbonate wins the tug-of-war, the calcium significantly reduces its effectiveness, cocking up the calculations by a large but indeterminate amount.

Sodium bicarbonate on the other hand is soluble, and because it does not contain the calcium ion it is a more positive way of increasing alkalinity by a known amount. It also adds some sodium, but it is an insignificant amount when one considers the huge amounts of common salt added to brewing water by both home brewers and commercial brewers, particularly with dark beers. Using sodium bicarbonate is as I mentioned above.

Whatever you do, you will need to get your calcium levels up. Your water is so soft that even I would find it difficult to walk on.

[beer gut]

The reason why i asked the question is caus like everything in the brewing world every person that brews has diffrent views on what to use and what not to use and caus i have only been all grain brewing for ten months i like to ask not one person about a quiery i might have on something i like to ask lot's of people and that way i can get the answer to my question.I was told from one guy who is a very good brewer that to raise the Calcium Bicarbonate levels in your water for dark alesyou need to add perciptated chalk and then in the next breath from Grham wheeler's book and off other brewers that you never add more chalk to your brewing water.So i came on to the beer forum to get more views on this matter. Then just after i put this topic on to the beer forum i recived a link for how to brew by john palmer and that's when i found the quanities for chalk so i came back on to share this info caus there was one other guy like me that needs to raise calcium bicarb in his water and i thought that this info will help. I also think that i should never have to explain my self to anybody.

[Graham]

I also think that i should never have to explain my self to anybody.

Well don't expect people to be in too much of a hurry to answer your questions then. Particularly if you are going to pooh-pooh any advice offered by replying with contradictory stuff that "work very well for me". It seems that you have superior knowledge, didn't need the advice, so there was no need to ask the question.

People are not here at your beck-and-call for your personal amusement, certainly not me.

[beer gut]

Like i said graham i have had nothing but exellent advice from jim's beer kit forum.When i said i have had conflicting advice that advice did not come from jim's beer kit it came from other brewer's outside of the forum that's when i brought the question to jim's forum to help me get a little claritey.I would also like to make one final thing clear and that is i was told to join jim's beer kit caus i did not have superiour knowlege and i have always said iam new to all grain brewing.Also i have found that the whole water/Alkalinitey aspect very confusing.I would also like to apollogise if i have caused any offense to you graham that was not my intesion caus like many new brewers i get very frustrated and i would like to thank you for all the advice you have gave me and i hope we can still talk.

[Graham]

No you have not offended me. I have offended myself, if anything, for being so grumpy during a period of boredom.

True, water treatment is a confusing subject. It has become overcomplicated in my view, and I am partly responsible for that. It was much easier in the old days when we simply boiled the water and chucked in a teaspoon or two of gypsum - that worked well for people in hard water areas. I still do boil, because it is fail-safe and does not introduce chlorides.

It is even more complicated for people living in soft water areas because it is harder to get the alkalinity up reliably than it is to get it down. Adding chalk to the mash does not always work; on occasions people have added the prescribed amount of chalk and their mash pH is still too low, Jim being an example. It does not happen to everybody though. A have a couple of theories as to why this happens, but, living in a hard water area, I do not have any positive solutions- any suggestions that I do make are really by remote control. What is more confusing is that I have done a test mash in deionised water and the pH was high. Something else must be at work in some soft waters, such as acidity from moorland run-off.

It would be a good idea if people living in soft water areas got together in a separate thread and discussed what worked for them and what did not. Some people must have cracked it.

Have a good year.
Graham

[beer gut]

Hi Graham and you have made me feel alot better now i know that i have not offended you. If you are Graham wheeler the guy who wrote those brewing books? let me tell you and i know you have heard this alot but here it goes i don't follow any religon but your latest released book is like a bible to me m8 it was your book that gave me the confedence to move from ale kits to all grain brewing and it was your book that helped me get thee most importent ale i have ever brewed from scratch on to the pumps at my local micro brewery/pub.If you are not the Graham wheeler who wrote those brewing books well iam sorry for the miss identfication it's just when it comes to brewing fine ales iam a bit of a Graham Wheeler fan.I would also like to clear up something and that is iam dislexic and i have a problem getting what i would like to write put forward the way i would like it put forward.Also i would like to clarify one other thing and that is i had used bicarb and chalk in some earlyer brews but i was only following what i was told to use by the guy in my local home brew shop and then one day i was in the Que in this brewing shop and i got talking to this other craft brewer a well known guy in the shop for brewing fantastic ale we had the discussion about water and the thing about chalk was brought up and he told me very sharply no you don't put chalk in your brewing water.He then said have you read Graham Wheller's new book caus the whole water thing is in there, so that day i bought the book and like he said there in the book it says you should get rid of all the chalk from the water.I was now very confused and that's when i went on to the forum to ask the experts what was there view on this matter.Then a time later i recived a link from a friend on how to brew by john palmer and in there was a list of brewing salts and other things and how much of these salts you add to your brewing water, so i then rembered the guy on the forum who was in the same boat as me and i thought i would share what i had recived about brewing salts on the topic in the beer forum.I hope i have not bored you but i have tried to explain on why it seemed so confusing and a bit conflicting.