Hi everyone,
This is my first brew, so please forgive the probably daft question.
My wife got me the Coopers Bitter kit with the associated bits for Christmas, and I've had the kit in primary fermentation for 8 days now.
As part of the complete kit, I got a pressure barrel. I initially intended to secondary ferment in the barrel and enjoy my 40 pints from that. Reading around, I gather that I can expect the beer to go flat after a few days once I start pouring from it - and I doubt I can get through 40 pints that quickly!
So I then planned to bottle my brew - so I ordered the capper, caps, a few extra bottles etc for delivery to my office - and asked the guys I work with for any empty bottles they may have. However, I'm now snowed in at home and can't get to the office - so have no access to bottling equipment, and am not likely to be able to get to it until next week now.
Would it be reasonable to secondary ferment in the pressure barrel and then after 2 weeks in the warm, 2 weeks in the cold bottle it all? Would the beer from the bottles maintain it's fizz over a reasonable period (say a month or two), or am I going to run into problems? The FG is steady at 1.004 so is probably ready for secondary now - alternatively, I could leave it in primary until next week and go down a pure bottling route.
Thanks for any advice!
Dave.
Bottling after secondary fermentation?
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Barm
Re: Bottling after secondary fermentation?
Welcome to an addictive 'hobby' (or as it becomes for many of us, more of a 'way-of-life' thing), Dave!
Q: does your keg have facility (ie valve on the cap) for CO2 gas addition - and have you got the gas cylinder/bulbs? Reason is: most bitters won't naturally produce enough CO2 during conditioning to allow dispensing of the full 40-odd pints. Consequence is that after a while, air gets dragged into the keg to replace the beer drawn off, and can cause oxidation (stale flavours) - hence usually, when the 'natural' CO2 has been depleted, you'd top up the keg with extra CO2 from a cylinder to a) retain conditioning of the beer b) provide enough pressure to dispense it (especially important with 'top-tap' kegs) and c) prevent ingress of air and subsequent oxidation.
If "yes" - then keg it.
If "no" - an extra few days in the FV won't hurt; then just bottle straight from the FV when your kit arrives.
The idea of 'secondary fermenting in the keg and then bottling' isn't a good one - steer clear of that. Actually the phrase 'secondary fermentation' gets misused quite often, I think; it usually refers to the period of slower fermentation after the foamy mass of the first few days has died down - some people transfer the brew to a separate vessel around this time; but it's pointless using a PB for this purpose. Really the term 'conditioning' is more often used for the phase when the beer's reached its FG, and you've boxed it up in a keg or bottles with some priming sugars to create some fizz.
Q: does your keg have facility (ie valve on the cap) for CO2 gas addition - and have you got the gas cylinder/bulbs? Reason is: most bitters won't naturally produce enough CO2 during conditioning to allow dispensing of the full 40-odd pints. Consequence is that after a while, air gets dragged into the keg to replace the beer drawn off, and can cause oxidation (stale flavours) - hence usually, when the 'natural' CO2 has been depleted, you'd top up the keg with extra CO2 from a cylinder to a) retain conditioning of the beer b) provide enough pressure to dispense it (especially important with 'top-tap' kegs) and c) prevent ingress of air and subsequent oxidation.
If "yes" - then keg it.
If "no" - an extra few days in the FV won't hurt; then just bottle straight from the FV when your kit arrives.
The idea of 'secondary fermenting in the keg and then bottling' isn't a good one - steer clear of that. Actually the phrase 'secondary fermentation' gets misused quite often, I think; it usually refers to the period of slower fermentation after the foamy mass of the first few days has died down - some people transfer the brew to a separate vessel around this time; but it's pointless using a PB for this purpose. Really the term 'conditioning' is more often used for the phase when the beer's reached its FG, and you've boxed it up in a keg or bottles with some priming sugars to create some fizz.
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sparky Paul
Re: Bottling after secondary fermentation?
Welcome to the forum! 
If you do the secondary ferment in the barrel, then attempt to transfer into bottles later, you are going to run into problems. As the beer is transferred, CO2 will come out of solution, causing foaming, and resulting in flat beer.
But you do have a few options.
1] You can bottle now, into anything you can get hold of - I'm thinking PET bottles, i.e. 2L fizzy pop/water bottles.
2] You could drop the beer into the keg, but do not prime with sugars to start the carbonation. The beer should be fine for a week or two, whilst you get organised on the bottling front - then transfer into primed bottles and do the carbonation in bottle as usual.
3] Put the beer into the keg and prime as usual. In the meantime, obtain some method of injecting CO2 into the keg. Assuming you have a S-30 type connector on the cap, you can get an injector for 5g sparklet-type bulbs, or a homebrew S-30 cylinder. You should be able to draw off a few pints without having to inject any gas, so if you can get to a homebrew shop within a reasonable time, you should be okay.
Just another quick tip, when doing any transfers from a tap or syphon, make sure you use a piece of pipe which goes right to the bottom of the receiving vessel. This will ensure splashing, and hence oxidation, is kept to an absolute minimum.
Hope this helps!
If you do the secondary ferment in the barrel, then attempt to transfer into bottles later, you are going to run into problems. As the beer is transferred, CO2 will come out of solution, causing foaming, and resulting in flat beer.
But you do have a few options.
1] You can bottle now, into anything you can get hold of - I'm thinking PET bottles, i.e. 2L fizzy pop/water bottles.
2] You could drop the beer into the keg, but do not prime with sugars to start the carbonation. The beer should be fine for a week or two, whilst you get organised on the bottling front - then transfer into primed bottles and do the carbonation in bottle as usual.
3] Put the beer into the keg and prime as usual. In the meantime, obtain some method of injecting CO2 into the keg. Assuming you have a S-30 type connector on the cap, you can get an injector for 5g sparklet-type bulbs, or a homebrew S-30 cylinder. You should be able to draw off a few pints without having to inject any gas, so if you can get to a homebrew shop within a reasonable time, you should be okay.
Just another quick tip, when doing any transfers from a tap or syphon, make sure you use a piece of pipe which goes right to the bottom of the receiving vessel. This will ensure splashing, and hence oxidation, is kept to an absolute minimum.
Hope this helps!
Last edited by sparky Paul on Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DaveO
Re: Bottling after secondary fermentation?
Thanks for your replies. The keg does have a valve on the top for CO2 addition - but I don't have any bulbs. I think I'll probably just leave the beer well alone in the FV for now and bottle when I've got all the kit I need, which will hopefully be early next week (when it'll have been fermenting for about 2 weeks).
Also thanks for correcting me, Barm - I was unsure of which term to use, and now I can see that they mean different things (as you can tell I'm very new to this!)
Cheers
Also thanks for correcting me, Barm - I was unsure of which term to use, and now I can see that they mean different things (as you can tell I'm very new to this!)
Cheers
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sparky Paul
Re: Bottling after secondary fermentation?
It'll be fine in the fermenter for a couple of weeks, but I wouldn't leave it much longer. Leaving the beer on dead yeast for a prolonged period can cause an off taste due to autolysis of the yeast.DaveO wrote:I think I'll probably just leave the beer well alone in the FV for now and bottle when I've got all the kit I need, which will hopefully be early next week (when it'll have been fermenting for about 2 weeks).
If it looks like you might have to leave it for 3 weeks or so, just take it off the sediment and drop it into the keg until you can sort your bottling arrangements.
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chiefstoker
Re: Bottling after secondary fermentation?
i must say, that this was a very informative thread for a newbie like me, it answered several of my thoughts -
b.all
Re: Bottling after secondary fermentation?
i think you'd be fine leaving it even longer than 3 weeks if need be. i've left several brews in the fermenter for 4 weeks and they've turned out really well. a longer conditioning period in the fermenter can get rid of some off tastes quite effectively. Autolysis is often exaggerated as a problem, it really isn't a big risk. think about how long wines etc. are left on the yeast and tend to be fine despite being more acidic.
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Barm
Re: Bottling after secondary fermentation?
yeh - def; as long as you keep it under airlock or at least with the FV lid on to keep air & bugs out.
I've previously held brews in an SV under airlock for 4-5 weeks with no problems.
Autolysis/yeast-bite is not usually an issue for this time-period; actually it's more due to excessive temperatures than anything else -eg 25+deg for 4-5 weeks might be enough to cause it...
I've previously held brews in an SV under airlock for 4-5 weeks with no problems.
Autolysis/yeast-bite is not usually an issue for this time-period; actually it's more due to excessive temperatures than anything else -eg 25+deg for 4-5 weeks might be enough to cause it...
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sparky Paul
Re: Bottling after secondary fermentation?
Autolysis is considered a risk from the 3 week stage, unless the beer is kept in a cool place to prevent further yeast activity. It is unlikely that problems would arise so early, but I would rather be safe than sorry... it seems prudent to me to drop the beer into a secondary after 2-3 weeks - particularly as a perfectly suitable vessel is available.
A bit of discussion in these threads...
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=22472
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=27305&hilit=#p296979
A bit of discussion in these threads...
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=22472
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=27305&hilit=#p296979
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Barm
Re: Bottling after secondary fermentation?
yes, I should add that on the occasions when I have held a brew for longer periods, it's always been racked off (usually after about 5 days or so) into a secondary vessel and thus not left sitting on a thick yeasty bed. Also this secondary stage is a good opportunity to dry-hop before bottling/kegging.