Modello Negra - Vienna Lager recipe - New AG brewer

[Manx Guy]

Hi,

I've scored a great little AG set up from a memeber of this forum, which hopefully should arrive soon - Cheers Mate!

I'm planning on doing a few of the Pale Ale recipes from GW's book to get started eg. Summer Lightening and Whiteshield plus maybe a nice mild...

Then come November/ December time I'd like to try a Vienna Lager... I know some of you are thinking 'he's trying to run before he can walk' ....

But part of the reason I got into HB in the first place was to make beer styles I like that I cant get easily... plus to learn more about the process and enjoy my beer instead of just pounding the stuff back like theres no tomorrow (2 out of 3 aint bad )

I found a clone for Modello Negra which is the easiest example of this style to get hold of, and I'm not ashamed to say I'm a fan...

What concernes me is that the mash is appears to me to be a step mash and I wonder how 'easy' thisis to acheive with an insulated mash tun...

I will basically be converting the following recipe (as soon as I get soem brewing software downloaded) to do a 19 litre batch, so any suggestions are most welcome:
**
ProMash Recipe Printout
Recipe : Cerveza Vienna (CV)
AHA Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------
17-A Vienna/Marzen/Oktoberfest, Vienna
Min OG: 1.048 Max OG: 1.056
Min IBU: 22 Max IBU: 28
Min Clr: 8 Max Clr: 12

Recipe Specifics
----------------
Batch Size (GAL): 10.50 Wort Size (GAL): 10.50
Total Grain (LBS): 19.13
Anticipated OG: 1.054 Plato: 13.22
Anticipated SRM: 9.2
Anticipated IBU: 22.8
System Efficiency: 80.00
Wort Boil Time: 80 Minutes

Grain/Extract/Sugar
Amount Name Origin Gravity Color
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
78.4 15.00 lbs. Vienna Malt Germany 1.037 3
10.5 2.00 lbs. Flaked Corn (Maize) America 1.040 1
7.8 1.50 lbs. CaraVienne Malt Belgium 1.034 22
2.6 0.50 lbs. Cara-Pils Dextrine Malt America 1.033 2
0.7 0.13 lbs. Black Patent Malt Great Britain 1.027 525

Hops
Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.00 oz. Spalter Spalt Pellet 4.50 8.2 80 min.
1.00 oz. Spalter Spalt Pellet 4.50 5.9 30 min.
1.00 oz. Hallertauer Mittelfruh Pellet 4.50 5.9 30 min.
1.00 oz. Hallertauer Mittelfruh Pellet 4.50 2.8 10 min.

Extras
Amount Name Type Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.00 Tsp Irish Moss Fining 15 Min.(boil)

Yeast
-----
WYeast 2206 Bavarian Lager

Mash Schedule
-------------
Mash Type: Double Decoction
Qts Water Per LBS Grain: 1.20 Total Qts: 23.03
Protein Rest Temp : 132 Time: 45
Saccharification Rest Temp : 153 Time: 60
Mash-out Rest Temp : 168 Time: 10
Sparge Temp : 170 Time: 60

Fermentation Schedule
---------------------
Primary Fermentation: 12 days at 52 F
Secondary Fermentation: 35 days at 35 F
**
Many thanks in advance.


Cheers!
Guy

[boingy]

You can step mash in a coolbox within certain limits. You basically start with a really thick mash and then add hot water to raise the temperature for each step. The problems are twofold:
1. Your initial mash will have lots of head space so will not hold the temperature too well. In reality, this will be OK.
2. At some point you run out of space to add the hot water!

[Manx Guy]

Thanks for the reply...

So I understand this as meaning that I need to get used to my 'set-up' and its capacity limitations before I try to do a step mash for ANY brew...
I've seen tables with how much water of a certain temp. to add to rasie a mash to figure x and so on...

So I 'll get 3-4 AG brews under my belt before trying to do a step mash...

Or I guess I could use Beer engine or similar to shrinl the batch size down so I can mash it 'mini mash style... That way I can find out if this recipe is any good before I go thru' the stress of risking all that grain in a step mash... (?)

Cheers!

Guy

[boingy]

I think in practice it is fairly easy to get a single temperature rise (i.e. two steps) but going further than that becomes a problem due to capacity. By the time you come to the third step you already have a substantial volume of grist to heat so you need to add lots more water.
Run the numbers and see.

There are other ways to get the step rises but they are all either a bit of a pain (remove all or some of the grist and heat in a pan) or require more equipment (like RIMS and stuff).

Certainly getting a single step mash under your belt would be a good plan but a two-step mash is not much harder.

[Manx Guy]

Oh, I see...

I may have misunderstood the mashing schedule on this recipe then...

I thought it meant start at 132F for 45 mins raise to 153 and mash for 45 mins then start sparging to complete mash at 168-170F...
Hmmm...

I see your point... but I'm hoping that to rasie the mash liquor and grist to 168 from 153F wouldn't need all that much hot water...
I've a feeling that thats a 'school boy error'... lol

Cheers

Guy

[aceuass]

honestly if you did this recipe as a single step you will make a great beer that you will appreciate a lot more than the commercial version
Cheers
Paul

[Manx Guy]

Cheers Paul,
Thats good to know!

I'm happy to do a two step (protein rest?) mash as I will most likely do this when doing a Yorkshire bitter... As I understand this is how some brewerys get that typical ' northern style' creamy head...

My kit has arrived and I've given it a clean I'm just getting one or two peices together.... I will try the boiler with a 12litre extract brew of Burton Bridge's Golden Delicious from GW's book and then I'm all set for some AG Pale Ales!
Bliss!

Cheers!
Guy

[WHL]

I'd cut the crystal and roast in half. It will be plenty rich and negra.
My first year of all grain I attempted many multi-step infusions and decoctions, but I've come around to hitting the right temp for a single infusion as the best method for creating a quality wort. If you must decoct, do it at mashout. But, stay away from a protein rest, it will Eff up the body of your beer.

Cheers, Bill

[Manx Guy]

Hi!

Thaks WHL - I see you have done 3 Vienna lagers, so will take you advice on board...

I note from a lot of American forums and books (The Complete Joy of Homebrewing for example) that almost all methods include at least a protein rest if not a 3 step mash...

This doesn't seem to be something you hold with, and I noted your 'location'...

Do they just like making work for themselves or is the malt available not (always) fully modified ?
Those are the only conclusions I can come to with my 'newbie eyes'...

Cheers!

Guy

[WHL]

I believe the modification qualities of the available German Malts have improved during the last 15-20 years to such an extent that the advice of Papizian, Noonan, and Fixx in particular have become a little outdated in regard to the benefits of protein rests. Conversely, the danger of longer rest in the 118-135 range is very real in my experience, especially when fiddling around with infusions. I would much rather decoct from an acid rest to saccrification rest or from saccrification to mashout. Though the benefits of decoction are very much debated by American homebrewers I think these practices can improve malt character, while step infusion regime might be more suited to creating a super-fermentable high gravity Belgian wort. Here is a link to an interesting take on decoction: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Decoction_Mashing
Overall, I believe it you stick it at 153 you are very good to go.

As to recipe formulation I should probably back off, as I haven't used Caravienne in a lager myself, and don't know how sweet that's going to be. Others might chime in on the maize proportions, but I think you might be drowning out some good German malt. In fact, you're getting a little closer to my Oud Bruin recipe in both respects.

Here are the three versions I made this spring. All turned out similar and quite good though I might lighten it slightly next year.
(These are 3 gallon batches.)

Ver.1
5 lb. German Pilsner
1 lb. German Munich Dark
1 oz. Carafa II
3 oz. German Caramunich II

Ver.2
6 lb. German Vienna
1 oz. Carafa II
4 oz. German Caramunich II

Ver.3
2 lb. German Pilsner
2 lb. German Vienna
2 lb. German Munich
1 oz. Carafa II
2 oz. German Caramunich II

I apologize for going on, but as I won't be brewing another lager until November, so all I can do is talk a good game.

Cheers, Bill

[Manx Guy]

Hi Bill,

Thanks for your reply, thats an interesting article...

I take your point on the recipe formulation- I guess a modello negra clone would need some maize - however if its a Vienna lager I'm after then I could opt for a recipe similar to one of yours (version 2 does look appealing)...

Incidently what did you use in the way of hops? I think these beers are fairly lightly hopped to around 28IBU ( I'm guessing the intention is to let the malt do most of the 'talking' for the beer) But 26 - 30 IBU does look like it would balance it quite nicely

I'm fairly set on trying the clone recipe and have played around with reducing the roasted/black barley and increasing the base (Vienna) malt and reducing the maize to 8% of the grist... I think the maize looks alot as the recipe listed is for a12.5 Gallon batch - I'll be doing a 5 gallon and a single step mash! I'm sure the carapils will improve my head retention inplace of a protein rest.

It will probably be around November before I brew this or any other Lager to be honest. After my summer break from brewing I plan to do a few pale ales/IPAs to 'restore my stocks' - before tying up FV's and secondaries to a lager...

Cheers

Guy

[WHL]

Pretty staid hopping on my part. I bought only N. Brewer and Hallertuer for my lagers last Fall.

15 ibu Northern Brewer 60 min.
5.5 ibu Hallertuer 30 min.
3.3 ibu Hallertuer 15 min.

I'm doing a few wheat and belgians early this summer. Then some more Bitters-IPAS as the heat allows. I might try some maize myself next fall as I'm satisfied with the maltiness of my Vienna.

Cheers, Bill

[Manx Guy]

Hi,

Thats not too different to what I'd use shedule wise for your Vienna #2 recipe.. although as I like my beers on the hoppier side I'd go for :

20 ibu Northern Brewer 60 min.
5 ibu Hallertuer 30 min.
5 ibu Hallertuer 10-15 min.

and maybe an ounce of Spalt or Crystal atr F/O (~80C) ...
Just an idea based on the hops I now I like...

My first brew after the break will most likely be a clone of Caledonian IPA - an easy drinking pale ale which while fairly hoppy for its strength (3.8%) is not 'really' an IPA...
But its a good stock beer, I used to get through pints of the stuff before brewing my own ale...



Cheers,

Guy

[Manx Guy]

Hi,

Just another thought about this recipe... IF I decided to attmpt the double decoction would that be a a thin one - which I understand to be liquid only or should I include some of the grist?

I think that I would drop 6l of the approx 10l of liquid out after the initial protein rest heat this up to give me the correct saccharification Rest Temp of 67C for the stated 60mins.. which I would imagine would be 7-9C higher - so about 74-76C?

Could I boil this liquid and then let it cool a little before adding it back to the MT stir check temp and adjust ?
I understand that boiling during the decoction improves mouth feel without efffecting how the beer attenuates - or have I misunderstood?

I do have a habit of trying to over simplify things!


Cheers


Guy

[coatesg]

I'm happy to do a two step (protein rest?) mash as I will most likely do this when doing a Yorkshire bitter... As I understand this is how some brewerys get that typical ' northern style' creamy head...

Most just add a good addition of torrified wheat and then serve through a sparkler. Apparently, the first pull of the pump makes the difference between a good head and a rather flat pint (I've seen this happen in the Theakston Brewery pub - if you half pull the first "stroke", the head is nowhere near as good. Much may depend on the beer, and the pump in use of course).