Astringency?

[oblivious]

I boil with the lid off to help hit my final volume (but not allways ) and to help drive of DMS

[Matt]

My money's on what PoP has highlighted. I had a very astringent brew last summer and it was one where I had left the lid on, or partially on.

[shiny beast]

Boiling with the lid on will cause excessive amounts of DMS (dimethyl sulfide) in your wort/beer. The flavour/aroma is typical of cooked veg.
Don't think it would cause problems with bitterness.

[danielski]

Right, you asked for it, got the whole shebang here, recipe, notes, everything....

003 TTL clone – Wheeler | 02/01/2007
8-B Special/Best/Premium Bitter

Size: 23.28 L
Efficiency: 67.61%
Attenuation: 81.0%
Calories: 183.72 per 1 pt

Original Gravity: 1.042 (1.040 - 1.048)
Terminal Gravity: 1.008 (1.008 - 1.012)
Color: 5.0 (5.0 - 16.0)
Alcohol: 4.44% (3.8% - 4.6%)
Bitterness: 41.77 (25.0 - 40.0)

Ingredients:
4850 g Golden Promise Malt
15 g Crystal Malt 120°L
42 g Styrian Goldings (Brupaks) (4.1%) - added during boil, boiled 90 min
35.0 g Fuggles (Hop & Grape) (5%) - added during boil, boiled 90 min
15 g Goldings (Brupaks) (5.8%) - added during boil, boiled 15 min
10 g Irish Moss - added during boil, boiled 15 min

Schedule:
00:06:00 Mash In - Liquor: 12.16 L; Strike: 73.0 °C
01:36:00 Saccharification Rest - Rest: 90.0 min
01:38:47 Mash Out - Heat: 2.8 min; Target: 75.6 °C
02:23:47 Sparge - Sparge: 17.7 L sparge @ 80 °C, 25.0 L collected, 45.0 min; Total Runoff: 25.0 L

Notes:
The mash from hell!
Thermo readings up and down, Finally got it balanced at 66.5 after 15 mins and 3 pints cold, 2 kettles boiling. That must make for an additional 3 litres of mash liquor at least and lots of stirring, Not sure how good this one is going to be...

Mash in: 09:10
Mash out: 10:40
Mash Temp
09:10: 70°c
09:25: 66.5°c
09:45: 62.5°c - wrapped mash tun with sleeping bag
10:00: 66°c
10:40: 64°c

Run-off start: 10:50
Sparge start: ?
Sparge Liquor temp: 81°c
Sparge Liquor vol: ~18l
Sparge time: 80 mins

Boil start = 15:30 (element faulty! had to tweak the pins with a screwdriver, then fit a new Backer element I had - finally after an hour i got it to work)
Boil end = 17:00
Boil vol @ start = 25l
Boil vol @ end = xxl
Pre-boil OG = 1041
Post-boil OG = 1062

Water added = 6l
OG = 1042

Safale S-04 yeast pitched at 20°c = 19:15
Heat element @20°c and airlock fitted

Racked into Cornelius Keg 12/01/2007
Final Gravity = 1008

BeerClear finings added in 50ml of wort

==

There you go! Now... any ideas?

[Boo Boo]

Don't worry Ed, the teapot seems to be making a come back here in the UK

As well as here in Canada. Even the coffee chain Tim Hortons now offer steeped tea. Might not be Earl Grey, but it most certainly is orange Pekoe.
However the tea we get today don't compare to the steeped tea my grandmother made!

[Boo Boo]

Sorry didn't see your recipie before I posted my last post.

Astringency can be avoided by... proper crushing of your malt... by paying close attention to the temperture and alkalinity of the mash and sparge water as well as the amount of water used. Overhopping will also cause astringency as well as a bacterial infection, although bacteria will also give you a vinegary off flavor as well.

I don't see any problem with your recipie as you posted it however.
Did any particles of grain husk make it into your kettle?

[bitter_dave]

Danielski

I don't understand how you arrived at 41.77 IBUs with that quantity of hops at the alpha acids stated. I just plugged the figures into promash and came up with 30 IBUs - which isn't that bitter, and is below the wheeler amount.

If you did get around 30 IBUs you are going to need to look elsewhere for the source of the extreme bitterness.

Did you add gypsum? I made a beer a while ago which although drinkable was a little more bitter than I was expecting given the IBUs - and I think excessive gypsum I added was to blame.

[Dunlambert]

Oh dear ! Just did my first AG with the lid half on during the boil is that going to spoil my brew

[danielski]

Danielski

I don't understand how you arrived at 41.77 IBUs with that quantity of hops at the alpha acids stated. I just plugged the figures into promash and came up with 30 IBUs - which isn't that bitter, and is below the wheeler amount.

If you did get around 30 IBUs you are going to need to look elsewhere for the source of the extreme bitterness.

Hmmm, I don't know about the actual bitterness level, this is just the reading that BeerToolsPro provides...

One thing common to both beers was that they weren't water treated, so it could be some kind of reaction between whatever chemicals are in the water and the hops?

At Battersea Beer fest the other night I noticed a similar but much less pronounced taste in virtually every beer i tried, so maybe it is down to water treatment? I'll give that a try next time - any recommendations?

[ray.norfolk]

Just been reading all the posts on this topic. No mention has been made about the fermentation and in particular, the fermenting temperature and treatment of the beer at the end. What were your final gravities and how long did you leave the beer in the primary fermenter after fermentation had stopped? - I'm just wondering whether the astringency is in fact a touch of "yeast bite" due to autolysis of the yeast. Got to admit it doesn't quite fit the description - one gets an almost acrid bitterness with yeast bite - once tasted, never forgotten!
Ray

[PieOPah]

How long before autolysis is an issue though? I have left on the yeast cake for up to 4 weeks with no ill effects. Others have reported aroud 10 weeks.

Normally I wouldn't go more than 2 weeks without racking to secondary

[Calum]

Just to add my tuppence.....

Going back to PoPs point about leaving the lid on. I certainly found that I got a nasty bitter flavour in my beer on the occasion I did this.

Someone on here pointed out my error and I haven't had any problems since.

[ray.norfolk]

> What's your opinion for a 'safe' length of time to leave beer on the primary slurry? I've heard many different opinions from 10 days to a couple of months

In my experience, I don't think there's a problem leaving beer on the primary slurry/sediment as there vitually no risk of oxidation. But I think the danger is where the yeast head (if one did in fact form) sinks back into the beer and that beer is then left for a few more days. I've brewed commercially as well as home and on the few occasions where this has occurred, we've ended up with yeast bite. I suspect that the suface of the head, being more exposed to the risk of oxidation, autolyses and contaminates the beer as in collapses back in.
Ray.

P.S. Still finding my way around this forum - how do you copy and paste a quote from a previous post, in a coloured background text box?
R

[PieOPah]

P.S. Still finding my way around this forum - how do you copy and paste a quote from a previous post, in a coloured background text box?
R

You can either click the 'quote' button at the top of each post or you can type

(quote)
this is what you would quote
(/quote)

or

(quote="ray.norfolk")
to have the posters name included
(/quote)

You need to replace the () with [] though

[BitterTed]

Looking over this thread, I'm with DaaB, you either over sparged or to much Gypsum.
Tea bag? how about biting a grape seed? now that is astingent!!
Autolysis, well, I have left beer on yeast for quite a long time and have not had that problem. Now I'm sure that it was starting a couple of times, but a bit of conditioning in a secondary usually took care of it. I'm sure 3 weeks wouldn't hurt a beer very much, if at all.
I leave the lid on my kettle only until the wort starts to boil, then I take it off.