Can someone 'proof read' my ingredients please?

[dave-flex]

Hi, i am planning my first extract/partial mash. I am having a go at a hob goblin clone. I am going by the recipe i see here: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=26532

Here is what ive got in my basket so far:
malts
Crystal Malt 500g Crushed

Chocolate Malt 500g Crushed

Carapils® Malt 500g Crushed

hops
Fuggles Hops 100g

Styrian Goldings Hops 100g

Danstar Nottingham yeast

Irish moss 30g

Small straining bag (fine)

What extract should i use? I see the recipe calls for 3.5kg of pale liquid extract, that seems a lot to me! I'd rather get more from my grains, but im very novice atm so dont know exactly how to adapt it.
How much would i need if i bought dry malt extract? And which should i go for, medium or light?

Also, how long will the remaining grains keep after this brew? The hops i can freeze right, for use later?

Think thats all my questions for now! I'm sure i'll find a few more

But any help will be greatly appreciated as whilst i'm really keen, i'm a little unsure at the moment!

Cheers,
Dave.

[dave-flex]

I'd like to bring down the amount of extract in this. would 2kgs be ok of dry malt extract? Do i need to up anything else to compensate?
I'm also suprised at the cost of all these ingredients. As it stands with 2kgs of dme its £33.26! Blimey!

[Kev888]

Hi,

3.5kg doesn't sound excessive, really - though it depends on batch size and the gravity you're aiming for. The thing is that the extra grains you're adding are really for flavour and whilst they certainly contribute you're still mostly relying on the malt extract to achieve the majority of the gravity (and later alcohol).

DME weighs less, so you need about 20% less than LME by weight; I think that would be about 2.8kg DME instead of 3.5kg LME. At something like (say) £7 per kg that would cost less than £20 though I agree the other grains and hops do add to the cost. You could indeed use less malt but your beer would be weaker unless you added some sugar as a fermentable substitute - generally substituting sugar makes for a less satisfying pint in my (and many other people's) view, but in smallish quantities and in beers that are designed to be light or less malty I still believe that it can have a place - its pretty much down to personal taste really, and thats all part of the joy of home brewing.

I find extract a 'similar' cost to the full-malt kits, though the separate grains and hops do then add to the cost so extract is generally a bit more expensive in total. I always felt that extract and partial grain brewing was more about flexibility with the recipe rather than brewing for the same cost as kits. The fun of tinkering is the main reason why I personally still do some extract brews as well as the kits I've been trying recently. I'm hoping to try all grain soon to get the best of both worlds, though I've no idea if I'll succeed and its becoming apparent even success would be at the cost of much less convenience!

I've never tried to keep such grains for more than a few months but never had a problem in coolish and, above all, dry conditions. I think flavouring grains are more robust (or less critical) than malts used for their fermentable properties. I keep hops in the fridge, though never really tried to keep them past a month or so; I also tend to get smaller packs so I don't end up keeping opened/part-used packs for long.

Hope that helps,
Kev

[dave-flex]

Thanks Kev, that's exactly the response I was after. Basically my quereys come from a lack of knowledge and experience with grains. But now I think I understand what's hapeeneing here: with all grain the bulk of the fermentables come from the base malt I.e the pale malt, which is the largest quantity of malt you see in an all grain recipe, then the specialty grains do their flavouring, colouring thang! So we sub these malts for extract in a partial mash for our fermentables. I couldn't understand why this much extract was needed when I see people only using small amounts as they progress more and more towards being almost all grain, but I guess as they start reducing he amount of extract they start bringing in amounts of the base malt to the mash for fermentables?
Anywho! I've ordered my ingredients now, including 3kgs of dme. Looking forward to giving this a whirl!
I agree completly that this is all about more fun and flexibility than being cheap, I just had an idea in my head that it would be cheaper I guess- nvm! No biggie.
What's the best way of adding the dme without it clumping like mad? Before i start the boil?
Thanks again kev.

[Kev888]

now I think I understand what's hapeeneing here: with all grain the bulk of the fermentables come from the base malt I.e the pale malt, which is the largest quantity of malt you see in an all grain recipe, then the specialty grains do their flavouring, colouring thang! So we sub these malts for extract in a partial mash for our fermentables.

Yep you've got it. The malting process is designed to help produce fermentable stuff, and in particular the modified pale malt grains are especially easy to extract this from. The treatement of grains used for flavouring and colouring is instead aimed at helping them to impart these attributes but not necessarily for optimum production of fermentables, in fact in some cases the increased unfermentable content is desirable for body and residual sweetness in the finished beer, and they are normally used in much smaller quantities than the pale malt.

You seem to have quite a lot of grain for my taste actually though, could be quite strongly flavoured. I just looked up a goblin recipe and found this: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9700&p=290872&hilit=goblin#p290872 which seems to use quite a bit less, and so may also be cheaper.

I generally used LME so am not an expert at DME - mainly just through habbit as DME wasn't really around when I began extract brewing. The few times I have used DME I adopted the approach of adding it whilst the water was cool, though it took a fair bit of stirring I think that helps to stop it clumping. Hotter water mixes with it better once it heats up, but adding it to hot seemed to increase clumping.

Cheers
kev

[dave-flex]

Hi, that's good to know I was on the right track then.
The recipe you posted is the one I'm following, the 500grms yousee repeated in my first post is what I'm buying, not what I plan to use!
The reason I asked about how long the grains keep was because I'll have some left over, but if you say a couple of months is no problem then I'll be fine. I'll use em for another brew!
I bet you can end up with a fair amount of grain and hops sitting about after a fairly short time period and then have enough to make some batches with what you've got lying around?
I'll try your suggestion about the dme, so far I've had varying results with it but mostly found it clumped up on me. I think I had best results adding it very slowly.
Cheers

[Kev888]

The recipe you posted is the one I'm following, the 500grms yousee repeated in my first post is what I'm buying, not what I plan to use!

Ah - that's a relief! I know some people like lots of colour and flavor, but even so it seemed 'rather robust'

I bet you can end up with a fair amount of grain and hops sitting about after a fairly short time period and then have enough to make some batches with what you've got lying around?
Cheers

Yes indeed - can be quite fun experimenting with the mix (though store them where mice can't get at them - they love grain!). Its reasonably difficult to go wrong as such if you stick to the normal additions, though you'll like some more than others. The only thing I'd say from my own tinkerings is to keep the quantity of strong dark grains in check because it can be easy to get a burnt taste if you overdo those.

I'll try your suggestion about the dme, so far I've had varying results with it but mostly found it clumped up on me. I think I had best results adding it very slowly.
Cheers

Yes, slowly sounds good, I think I sprinkled it as I stirred into the cold water. If you really don't get on with it you could try LME next - if you can find a supplier with a turn over thats big enough to make it reasonably fresh it can be just as good if not better than DME - though obviously heavier if it has to be posted and so on.

Cheers
Kev

[dave-flex]

Thanks, well to my suprise my ingredients arrived today! I only ordered it yesterday afternoon so was expecting it on Monday. So I should be brewing this weekend.
I take it then the chocolate malt would be the one to go easy on when experimenting? I'm not mad on overly strong dark beer, but do like a subtle hint.
I'm suprised at the size of the 'small' straining bag I ordered! It's seems pretty big! But I can see it's really about right for what I want to do. Looking forward to a kitchen full of interesting smells this weekend...

[Kev888]

Hiya,

sorry - been away for the weekend. Yep its the darker/stronger ones to be easy on the quantities with, and chocolate malt is one of those that can give too strong (in my view 'burnt') flavour if you get a bit heavy handed.

Hope it goes/went well!

Cheers
kev

[dave-flex]

Hi Kev!
I made the bach on sunday and it all went very well! (i think!)
Its fermenting away nicely now and smells very nice! The thing i notice mostly is the presence of the fresh hops, which is something pre-hopped kits lack.

Something i hadn't thought about before I started was the fact that recipe i was following was only for a 19L batch, really i'd have liked to have made it up to 23L, but didnt know how to use the beer engine software to work it out, so i stuck with 19L.
Everything went to plan, i managed to chill the wort much quicker than i expected to using an ice bath and stiring the water round to aid cooling.

Cant wait to try it. I plan to rack to secondary after one week then leave another1-2 weeks then probably bottle. (i have very recently aquired a cornie keg, which i have not yet used, but think ill bottle the goblin clone so i can keep some back and age them longer).

Thanks for your help.
Dave.

[Kev888]

Hi Dave, glad it went well!

Yep, it was probably a good idea to stick with the recipe to start with - you'll know the quantities were okay and it'll also give you something to compare future alterations back to.

Generally speaking to change quantities by a few litres I tend to just multiply or divide the ingredients (e.g. the quantity needed = 23/19 x the recipe); I'm usually tinkering and not trying to hit anything too specific when I brew with extract though, so it works well enough for me. I can see the beer engine sw could be useful for bigger or more tightly controlled alterations though.

Good luck with the racking and bottling.

Cheers,
kev