Hot Water Cylinder HLT - pics

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Kev888
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Re: Hot Water Cylinder HLT - pics

Post by Kev888 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:50 pm

Chris-x1 wrote:unless i'm missing something, if the wort can get behind the inner flange (which it appears it can as there's no seal) there is still a leak path up through the threads themselves.
Yes thats exactly right, but the extra bit is that the threads are inside so there's no path out. Give me a little while and I'll have a go at a diagram - if for no other reason than to convince myself. Its not the most intuative component I've ever come across :shock:

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Re: Hot Water Cylinder HLT - pics

Post by Naich » Thu Jul 01, 2010 9:34 pm

Kev888 wrote: I've not thrown the coil away, though :-)
Spoken like a true scavenger. Wise is the man who's shed is full of stuff that'll probably come in handy one day :)
Its interesting actually, that this sort of monster coil (in something like 1" diameter pipe), is considered the optimum for exchanging heat in central heating systems, whilst we tend to go the opposite way and use considerably longer narrower tubes for our ICs. I guess central heating systems need to avoid restriction in the flow rate or something like that, and being re-circulated there's no concern about the amount of water passing through.
True. Efficiency isn't the priority. Not really what you want for an IC, unless you're recirculating it through a chiller.

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Re: Hot Water Cylinder HLT - pics

Post by Kev888 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 9:54 pm

Chris-x1 wrote:unless i'm missing something, if the wort can get behind the inner flange (which it appears it can as there's no seal) there is still a leak path up through the threads themselves.
I had a go at a drawing to show how it works - or at least how I think/hope it works..
Image

sorry it all turned out a bit primary colours, was trying for clarity and may have overdone it!

Does this make sense? Its not too late to change it if not. One issue of mechanical flanges that I just discovered is that the radius of the bend in the heating element itself can be sized to barely fit the element hole, and not the smaller hole created by the internal part of the mechanical flange... <sigh> On reading my diagram I'm also beginning to wonder if I even spelled immmmmersion correctly too..

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Re: Hot Water Cylinder HLT - pics

Post by Kev888 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 10:01 pm

Naich wrote:
Kev888 wrote: I've not thrown the coil away, though :-)
Spoken like a true scavenger. Wise is the man who's shed is full of stuff that'll probably come in handy one day :)
Indeed! Though in truthfulness if I actually manage to get into my garage/shed, let alone find anything, its starting to become a surprise...
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Re: Hot Water Cylinder HLT - pics

Post by Kev888 » Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:32 am

Chris-x1 wrote:That makes sense now. I didn't realise that the lock ring and the internal threads visible in the original picture were all one item. In which case you are right, the element seals the threads and there is no leak path. Ideal for an HLT but not such a good arrangement for a boiler as it would need dismanteling regularly for cleaning.
Great stuff - nice to have confirmation, thanks!

Yes I agree - fine for this HLT build but maybe not so great if it were a boiler that needed more cleaning. I think there may be a way to sort that for anyone wanting to make a boiler this way, though. At least I hope so as I'm thinking of using the same thing on my boiler when I build that - the flange seems more robust than using the element directly with a back nut, and so may have more chance of sealing against the less flexible curved wall of my stainless tank (and even the back nut approach is designed to seal the immersion outside and so would let stuff get into the threads if used 'as is' too).

So, for the boiler I'm going to look at fitting a second washer internally and sealing/filling the threads with something potable to make cleaning easier - probably that liquid you can get instead of ptfe tape, but possibly high temp food use silicone or something. Happily, toolstation (where I got the flange from) also do spare washers for the flange which are nice and thick, and whilst the inner part of the flange isn't curved to fit the wall at least it has flats to keep the width down, so it should still fit into the curve fairly well. No doubt I'll do a post on the success (or otherwise) of that idea when I build my boiler though.

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Re: Hot Water Cylinder HLT - pics

Post by Aleman » Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:53 am

LS-X is potable . . . and safe at boiling too.

Incidentally you can reinforce the edge by bending a copper coil (probably using 10mm) around the top and then bending the tank over that before soldering. . . . Just an idea

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Re: Hot Water Cylinder HLT - pics

Post by Kev888 » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:12 am

Cheers chaps. Those could well be solutions for older/unlagged tanks, and with the flange you can get solder-in ones purpose made for doing just that (cheaper too!).

I went with the mechanical one though because I'm not confident about soldering so close to all that insulation on my cylinder, and don't want to strip it off as I see that as one of the benefits of the cylinder idea. However, as it doesn't need to actually fix the flange in maybe something less mechanically strong, some sort of glue or sealant, would be equally as effective in keeping wort out. Ditto for the rim inforcement too, if I fixed reinforcement on in a mechanical way somehow.

I don't know about soldering to stainless when I do my boiler though - there's no insulation on that so its possible, but I've never tried soldering to stainless, not sure how well (if at all) that would work?

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Re: Hot Water Cylinder HLT - pics

Post by Kev888 » Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:08 pm

Chris-x1 wrote:You can soft solder copper to stainless. I believe there is a recommended solder but I have just used normal leaded solder and flux in the past. The stainless should be thoroughly cleaned and the oxide layer removed with fine emery before soldering. You might find more help here http://www.cupalloys.co.uk/
Excellent - I'm a bit of a DIY bod but thats something I didn't realise; thanks (yet again!) for the education! Soldering would certainly be better (in situations where there's no lagging in the way, anyway).

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Re: Hot Water Cylinder HLT - pics

Post by Kev888 » Sun Jul 04, 2010 6:21 pm

Did a bit more on the HLT today - I've still got to mark the sight tube and test boil, and perhaps make a lid, but I think everything else is done :)

This is how it looks from the outside (still very green!). You can see that I've fitted the element, tap and polycarbonate sight tube (EDIT: I later swapped the compression fitting on the sight tube for push fit - see later in this thread):
Image
You can't see it but I removed the thermostat from the element and connected the live direct to the element's brown wire with an electrical terminal block. The cable used is the heat resistant stuff of the type they specify for use with immersion heaters (used in their more traditional central heating role).

There was a slight change of plan here; I'd intended to use the old upper coil hole for a temperature probe, but realised it was too high for smaller batches. Also I'd intended to use the former lower coil hole for the sight tube, but decided it would be awkward having the sight tube on the opposite side to the tap. So I put the temperature probe's pipe in the lower coil hole and added a new 15mm tank connector for the sight tube, at a more handy location. This left a spare hole, and I decided to use it for an overflow:
Image

Here's a closer view of the outlet and tube for the temperature probe. You can see I made a small dip tube so that the syphon effect would drain below the tap's hole - it leaves less than a pint in, not bad for something thats probably around 100l with so little dead space, so quite chuffed with that. The temperature probe tube is really just because I had a spare hole - I could probably have held a probe against the outside of the wall instead, really. The temp tube is a bit low down, which is good for small batches or for when nearing the end of the sparge, but I'll either have to stir or else compensate mathematically for the water changing temperature between bottom and top of the cylinder.
Image

I tested it for water tightness and I'm glad because it leaked from the flange slightly - it was a real bu@@er to tighten enough, actually, in the end I managed it with the cylinder full of water to give it weight and used both hands on an enormous wrench. I was quite impressed with some aspects of the flange though - once you got it to a certain tightness the inside of the flange gripped the copper and so there was no need to hold it both inside and out - which is good as I'm not sure I could have done that at the same time. Another issue I had was that the flange is a bit thicker than the solder-in ones, which meant that the hole it makes (beyond the threads) is marginally smaller. The first three elements I tried didn't go in - the bent-over end of the element itself was bent at too big a radius to go through it.

I then cleaned the HLT by soaking for half an hour with a bleach solution (thanks are due to Chris-x1 for preventing me from soaking it for far too long!) and its come up really rather well.

I did consider building a barrel-type cladding affair around it, but in the end decided that would cost too much time and effort, and I like the honest functional look anyway - getting quite attached to the green beast actually. I think it may work well for a HLT if left largely in situe and just drained and filled etc. and it has no problem at all taking the volume/weight of water, even with no top. But were I going to use it for a boiler which would be moved around and turned upside down for cleaning then it would either need great care or some reinforcing. The rim isn't very robust and also the wall bends very easily if the pipes sticking out are bumped.

I'll think about bothering with a lid or not, and following a suggestion from aleman I could brighten up the inside witha vineagr solution, as there are a couple of green spots - generally though the naturally formed coating is reasonably uniform so I've no particular concerns about sanitation.

Next the test boil!

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kev
Last edited by Kev888 on Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hot Water Cylinder HLT - pics

Post by Naich » Sun Jul 04, 2010 8:07 pm

Nice one! Looks the business, and I think the green look gives it character :)

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Re: Hot Water Cylinder HLT - pics

Post by Kev888 » Sun Jul 04, 2010 8:12 pm

Naich wrote:Nice one! Looks the business, and I think the green look gives it character :)
Thanks! Yes, its certainly... individually coloured :-)

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Re: Hot Water Cylinder HLT - pics

Post by haz66 » Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:38 pm

Is there and reason why you reduded the the pipe for the temp probe ?
I was just gonna use 15mm and cap it.

By the way the HLT is looking excellent :D

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Re: Hot Water Cylinder HLT - pics

Post by Kev888 » Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:10 am

haz66 wrote:Is there and reason why you reduded the the pipe for the temp probe ?
I was just gonna use 15mm and cap it.

By the way the HLT is looking excellent :D
Its just to give the probe a better fit - mine is about 6mm diameter and the reduced tube at the end has an inside diameter of about 7mm. I figured that i could probably pack it with something like thermal compound and/or maybe wind some fine copper wire around the probe or something to give a better thermal contact with the tube. I don't know if its worth it ot not really though, its not as if 25gals of water is going to change temperature very suddenly, so probably what I've done is overkill - I'd guess that a 15mm tube with insulation behind it would work out fine too, especially if the probe touched the tube wall.

Thanks! Its obviously not a nice stainless tank like your own, but for what it is I'm quite happy so far. Didn't manage to test it last night though, so it still remains to prove itself...

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Re: Hot Water Cylinder HLT - pics

Post by Kev888 » Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:29 pm

Started a test boil around 9pm. So far so good; it raised a complete fill from 18degreesC to 45degreesC in about an hour - though I've yet to measure it I estimate its about 90-100litres. Could be a long night, but I didn't get back from work in time to start sooner. The element is 3kw (nominally) but thats at 240v; I guess its more like 2.7kw at 230v - or less by the time you take circuit losses into account.

The flex is warm to the touch and the plug a bit more so than the flex, but so far not 'hot' so I'm not too concerned as yet. I may look at a permanent fused spur, or maybe one of those industrial commando 32A round-pin plugs and sockets, when I use it seriously.

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Re: Hot Water Cylinder HLT - pics

Post by Kev888 » Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:16 am

Well thats the boil test done. All went well - yay! :-)

In about 2.5hrs it had reached 73 degrees - that seems quite acceptible for a big HLT of an estimated 90-100L, especially if I were to put an immersion timer on it to start before I got up on brew day. That said, the cold water was about 16degreesC at this time of year so it would be worse in winter, but even so quite workable hopefully.

However its only just now begining to boil, after 5hrs, and its not cold in the kitchen. I guess you could fit that into a longish brew day if you expected to boil this quantity, or you could mash one day and set a timer to start it in the wee hours of the next, so it'd begin to boil after breakfast. But I think personally, when it comes to my boiler build I'll be looking quite seriously at two elements for that.

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