Munich and ...?

[Gothamite]

Thinking of this, following on from some previous threads.
Munich 4.3kg
Carapils 50g
Cara Red 50g
Cara Aroma 10g
EBC 18
1.051 OG
1.013FG
5% ABV
Liberty 60min 30g 18IBU
Chinook 15min 30g 17IBU
Centennial 0min 50g 0IBU
Willamette Dry Hop 28g 0IBU
35IBU
11L Mash vol
60min mash @ 68C
15L sparge vol
30min sparge @ 75C
60min boil
Pitch - Nottingham
19L final vol.

Does this sound okay?
I've not got any MO currently, so wanted to brew what I've got.
Plenty of speciality malts in the house, no recipe to go though.
Any suggestions welcomed.
Thanks,
Gothamite

[Barley Water]

Well, if I were doing that recipe, I would at the least use the Chinook as a bittering hop rather than a flavor hop (if I used them at all which frankly I probably would not). The thing with Chinook is that you will end up with a rather harsh (in my opinion) extreme grapefruit flavor which is going to cover everything else completely. By the way, if you decide to go this route, make sure that you adjust the quantity of Chinook down as the alpha acid % is much higher than the Liberty in the formulation which of course will produce a beer much more bitter than intended. Just my opinion however, many people just love that over-the-top grapefruit effect, that is why Stone Brewing is making money hand over fist out in California.

[Gothamite]

Isn't Proper Job quite grapefruity? I guess that's where I was headed, OKay, if I replace Liberty with Chinook, what aroma hops should I go with?

[Barley Water]

Don't know about Proper Job, I have not run into it over here. Anyhow, I don't know if I can give you a good answer unless I know what effect you are going for. I like bitter beers where the bitterness and hop flavor is very smooth rather than really agressive and harsh. For instance, I am a big fan of Dogfish Head 60 which uses three hops, Warrior, Simcoe and Amarillo. The beer is bitter and has a really big hop flavor and aroma but at the same time, the taste is not really out of balance with the beer or crude tasting (as say versus Arrogant Bastard which I don't really care for). Remember also, the effect you get with your hops is also very dependent on the water you are using, that's part of the reason the guys at Burton were so successful with their pale ales and IPA's. If you want the big grapefruit effect, I would probably drop the Willamet and go with maybe Amarillo or perhaps Cascade. Willamet is somewhat like Fuggles, a great hop but the flavor is going to be much more refined than most Pacific Northwest hops.

The thing about your formulation as a whole though is that on the one hand, you seem to be looking for a malty type beer (use of Munich, Carared etc). Then, you turn around and use a hop like Chinook and want to late hop and dry hop the beer which in my opinion will tend to cover up the malt flavors. It is possible to make a malty beer bitter, but generally, there is not alot of flavor or late hopping going on. The Germans are the best example I can think of who make really malty beer (they don't call in Munich malt for nothing) and they rarely late hop. A perfect example of a bitter German beer with Munich malt is Alt Bier. The good stuff is bitter as hell but the beer has a very definate malt character and not a lot of hop flavor or aroma. By the way, I'll be taking another shot at Alt pretty soon and I plan to substantially increase the bitterness over the last batch I made.

Anyway, take all that for what it's worth. The real fun in this hobby is in the experimentation. I just love to screw around and try different combinations of ingredients and brewing processes. Of course, I also brew to my own tastes and I am not really a big hop head (although I am getting worse and worse as time goes on) so anything I would have to say on the subject is no doubt influenced by that. Have fun, make something different, that is how new styles are born.

[lancsSteve]

Sounds a little like it's in the 'Evil Twin' type recipe area which is (apparently) big on the malt AND hops - though far less munich than this:

http://www.mrmalty.com/late_hopping.htm

It will be malty as a very very malty thing with a pure munich base (which is lovely) I'd def think of using anything high alpha early and low alphas late.

Liberty or willamette would get swamped by chinook/centennial - you could use just liberty and go for a more bock-type taste with lower bitterness and a nottingham at lower temps for a more neutral yeast effect... Or maybe try willamette for bittering and liberty for late (or both at each stage) which would still be bock/marzen-esque.

Or if you want to do the sort of US hop-profile to match go big on that as well as big on the malt then centennial + maybe a little chinook at 90, then centennial at 30 / 15 / dry. Centennial works fairly well late but needs TIME to lose the harshness...

Just some thoughts but would def see the willamettea nd linberty getting lost against the dominant grapefruit of chinook and centennial

[Hawkinspm]

Proper Job I believe is bittered with Chinook and then uses Willamette and Cascade as the late hops IIRC

As I am not a huge fan of high alpha hops I used Challenger to bitter a similar style beer then Williamette and Cascade late, and more Cascade to steep.

[lancsSteve]

There's a strong argument for the 'high alpha have no place in homebrew' view (as advocated by Randy Mosher) - they;re developed mainly for economic reasons and economies-of-scale but those considerations don't really matter in homebrew where we can use double the amount of low alpha hops instead and reap the benefits of smoother bitterness and flavour...

[Gothamite]

Thanks for all your comments guys. The background to this brew is that I've not got any MO currently, but am desperate to brew. I've got the Munich and plenty of specialities. I have recently done a Dogfish Head 60, an Arrogant Bastard, a Jaipur (Scarer's Bombay recipe) and a 3Floyds Dreadnought, all of which I have been really disappointed with the amount of hop flavours that I am getting back from all those lovely hops I've added. This time round I was hoping to really over-do the hops with the most tasty types I have to try and compensate for all the bland beers I've made. I understand that the Munich will give me a malty overtone, but was indeed trying to get the best of both worlds by adding loads of fruity hops. I wanted a light orange beer, not too alcoholic as I am tending to think that the higher ABV brews I've done have soaked up the hops and one which I can really taste the hops.
Brewday is Saturday, so any more advice would be gratefully received.
Thanks,
Gothamite

[Barley Water]

A couple of things to think about then. First of all, what is your water like? Put simply, if your water is soft then you will need to add alot more hop to get the same effect that you would if your water was hard. Secondly, how fast can you cool down the wort after shutting down? The faster you can drop the temperature, the better will be your hop aroma and flavor (and actually, most people can not separate the two, if you smell it, you will also likely taste it). That's why I built myself one of those Jamil Z chillers, that thing is a beast and really cools the wort down fast. Check out the Mr. Malty website, it tells all about how to build one and how well they work.

[mark]

If you have plenty of speciality grain in, have a look at some mild recipes, substituting the pale malt with munich
That is what I would look to do.....traditional English style hopping to maybe 30IBU.

I agree with the previous comment about the malty grain bill not sitting well with an aggressive hop like chinook.
I like chinook, but really would only consider it in pale style ales.

ATB

[Gothamite]

Thanks again guys. BW - My water here is hard and the only adjustment I make is Camden in the water. Have started to think about gypsum and epsom additions having listened to some of the Jamil show podcasts. Mark - mild is not something I've considered. Have done a dark IPA/Stout recipe (probably my best yet) but not what I want now. So, what I really want is hop flavour. All I have is 4.3kg of Munich, 1.3kg of lager, 1kg Vienna, and 1kg of Amber, Cara Aroma, Pale Crystal, 500g of Cara Red, Cara Amber, Carafa 3, choc, Special B, Carapils and Melanoidin. Have got quite a few hops, none English. Should I just wait for the pale malt to arrive, or is there some concoction of the above that will work in some way?
Cheers,
Gothamite.

[Birdman]

Hi Gothamite

I have plenty of MO. You can borrow some off me. Have to agree with a lot of the comments, when I first saw your recipe I thought "woah, way too much going on there!". Im currently going through a mid-brewing crisis as you know. I really want to simplify everything I do from now on so Im not dicking around with all sorts and not knowing what flavours are coming from what, and 4 different varieties of hops will be lost in all that malt. Someone suggested Jamils Evil Twin somewhere up top.

I think a toned down 1.050 version of this (http://www.brewmate.net/recipes/bZ6kkTj ... mRAJS8.xml) with lots of dry hops will give you everything you want from this brew (use of speciality malts + big time hop aroma / flavour). Loving Barley waters comments as Ive been trying to convince you to buy a pump to whirlpool those hop flavours in with the IC for a while.

My summer supper which you've tried is quite similar. No bittering additions. Then 20, 10, FO, DH. Amarillo & Centennial all the way, and tastes great...

[Birdman]

Summer Supper
Jims Summer Supper (American Pale Ale)

Original Gravity (OG): 1.047 (°P): 11.7
Colour (SRM): 11.4 (EBC): 22.5
Bitterness (IBU): 41.7 (Average)

60.44% Maris Otter Malt
33.58% Lager Malt
5.98% Crystal 20

0.7 g/L Amarillo (9.5% Alpha) @ 20 Minutes (Boil)
0.7 g/L Centennial (11.7% Alpha) @ 20 Minutes (Boil)
1.3 g/L Amarillo (9.5% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil)
1.3 g/L Centennial (11.7% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil)
1.3 g/L Amarillo (9.5% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Aroma)
1.3 g/L Centennial (11.7% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Aroma)


Single step Infusion at 66°C for 60 Minutes. Boil for 60 Minutes

Fermented at 18°C with Safale US-05

Dry Hopped with 30g Amarillo and 30g Centennial...

Brew date = 16/07/2010

Final Vol = 22L at 1.044 as went a bit crazy on the water. Pitched on top of 400ml of US-05 slurry (prob way too much but I had it ready to go after transferring another beer to secondary).

Recipe Generated with BrewMate

[lancsSteve]

Im currently going through a mid-brewing crisis as you know. I really want to simplify everything I do from now on so Im not dicking around with all sorts and not knowing what flavours are coming from what, and 4 different varieties of hops will be lost in all that malt. Someone suggested Jamils Evil Twin somewhere up top.

There's a logic there - considered the KISS approach? (Keep It Simple Stupid) go single malt (for which munich is EXCELLENT) and a single or at most two hops. And then ignore the style gurus and partner something full-on like chinook early with a late BIG addition of a flavour hop like centennial maybe at 10 minutes and then post-boil too. That would at least keep everything in line.

I made an almost-all-munich alt with a LOAD of perle which is actually very hoppy and bitter - more than I'd intended but now beautifully matured.

Maybe consider first-wort hopping too if you want to get more flavour and less harshness from your bittering hop?

[Gothamite]

Okay,
Some really good advice coming here, thanks. Thanks Birdman for the offer of some MO, thanks LancsSteve for your suggestion to keep it simple. I like the idea of the Evil Twin, however, I want this to be quite orangey in colour, so, the grain bill I mentioned fits that bill. The extra grains are such small additions that they should not impart too much maltiness on top of the Munich, only colour. I may well go with early Chinook as bittering, thanks BarleyWater for the suggestion, and then I may well finish with a combo of Amarillo and Centennial as per Jim's Summer Supper. Any further thoughts before I commit?
Cheers,
Gothamite.